There will be other girls around. Your daughter might not spend any time at all with her. And presumably they won't be spending their days surfing the 'net.
Thanks!
She's going. I was just worried. Now less so.
Just wondering if anyone agrees that the change in expectations goes both ways - people expect a higher standard of living (for good and bad), but people are also expected to do a lot more in terms of making an effort.
Ora, you are my new heroine! And you live in Israel! Wow! Talk about achdus!
Whenever I've talked seriously with thoughtful, intelligent people, this is the point that always comes out! BTW, I've had this conversation with at least five or six Holocaust survivors; several name-recognizable talmidei chachomim, as well as a large number of people from various geographical backgrounds.
The biggest issue, based on the conversations I've had over the years, boils down to the following:
.
I like this, but you know that the elephant in the room is bc....(Hey, that's good for another 10 pages at least )
If I can be serious after sweltering in the heat today so can you!
Seriously now, Ora and others you are overlooking all those women for all those generations whose husbands didn't or couldn't support the family and the WOMEN took work home, cleaned for others, took in boarders particularly in America starting with the 1850s and before but particularly after 1881 and the great migration, did piecework at home with a whole bunch of little kids around...and supported their families.
So it wasn't so simple. Women did work. My great grandmother ran a store, another ran the local lumberyard where her husband and sons were working, a third ran a shoe store from home (we are talking like 1890 in Poland) and only one didn't earn money to support her family but her husband was a tailor and made enough to support them. My great great grandmother from what I know on one side also sold from home, another ran an inn etc. All this in both Europe and the USA. Married women did NOT go out to work usually 130 years ago, 110 years ago etc. but they could sure earn money from home and many did.
Another point, the question of "why don't you" only comes up once one has options. But then it DOES come up and one has to address it. So as soon as Jews had choices in terms of place of dwelling, place of domilice in general, profession, possibilily to train for something, to study in college and to use family planning the questions all DO come up.
Three hundred years ago no one would turn to someone and say "why are you living here in Lithuania - why aren't you moving to EY?" Because EY was beyond the black hills. It would take you three months at the least to get there, and once you went, there were no communities which would accept you as an ashkenazi, you only went there to die usually.
The aliya of talmidei r. Yehuda hechassid in 1700 I think it was, changed that a bit, so let's say 311 years ago...but you get the picture.
Today, it's a legitimate question that people are asked.
I agree in full about standards, some people seem to want to live by standards that are not in keeping with their abilities, their lifestyle choices etc. And to repeat what was said, beggars didn't send their kids to yeshiva, didn't have kallah jewelry or custom sheitls.
You know something? I think it's cooler here in Israel than a lot of places these days...!!!! My windows are open and we are gasping for a bit of unairconditioned breaths, and are succeeding!
There's camp, and there's day camp! (Can't you start seeing what it means talking yourself blue against the wall! This has been discussed many times on this thread already!!!!!)
Day camp, the kind Leiby Kletsky went to, is a daytime program only, with hours ranging form 8:00 am and up, through 3:00 pm and later. Some are simple, usually the boys, where there's learning and then some swimming and/or activities and trips. The girls usually have some davening, a shiur, and then activities, swimming and trips. It gives WM a place to leave their school age kids when they work, and it gives the SAHM a few hours of a break so they get their homes/lives in check, while their kids are in a "supervised" environment.
Now with the sleep away camp, it's a gantz andere maaseh. The camps usually start boys over kitta vav, and girls over the fifth grade. Boys don't really have much of a choice (in chassidishe circles) of going or not, as the ENTIRE cheder/yeshivah system relocates to camp. All the menahalim and melamdim and their families, move up for those two months. Only a handful of boys stay behind in a make-shift cheder in the city. With girls it's a bit different, where going to camp is totally optional, so as the gradea rise, more girls come. In other words, few girls in the younger grades go. In the older grades, you always have more and more girls joining.
The reason for sleep away camp? To provide a "country setting" for the city kids, away from the sweltering heat, confined apartments and tank top clad non jews. This is why for the boys it is mamesh liek not an option to stay behind, except for in extreme cases. The girls who stay behind, if they are younger than 8th grade, they attend a day camp. If they are older, they usually apply for some volunteer work or work in the day camp.
Now since the sleep away camp is more as an escape from the city, those living out of the city do not really have camps. I don't know of any cheder or yeshiva out of the city that has a camp, since they are not city restraint kids and have an almost camp like lifestyle. (Although you can't compare care-free spirit-induced camp life to structure-like suburb life, but now I digress...). There was one camp for the Monroe boys where they provided a camp experience for the boys for 2 weeks each summer, but now that the economy hit hard, they discontinued the program.Suburban girls don;t have camps at all, so they join any camp that is owned by city run directors, if they wish to.
I think I covered it all now.
Lets hear the issues you have with all this.
Thanks, that was inciteful and did answer my question at least regarding chassidish camps, I'd still like to hear from other circles who send to camp.
I guess Israel is plainly less urban than inner city NY. Even if you live in stuffy Geula or BB you are still only an hour away at most from nature trails.
You know something? I think it's cooler here in Israel than a lot of places these days...!!!! My windows are open and we are gasping for a bit of unairconditioned breaths, and are succeeding!
We NEVER turn the AC on in the evening the most we need is a fan. It's so nice outside, come August though we're going to have to go back to winter pajamas. I love Gush weather.
Back to my dishes I go, after making 38 mini Shnitzels (I guess they're more large chicken nuggets) for my kids' day camp on Sunday.
Now just have to figure out how we survive August without any option of day camp and both DH and I working outside the house.
Fun fun fun in the sun.
Can you tell I'm avoiding my milchig sink?
Me neither!!!! But I'm at least contributing to the "keep this boring thread going" drive!!!!
Apparantly this thread is currently about:
Forgoing shiva
Cupcakes
Crockpots
BTW Tomorrow Is The Last Day Of Kaitana.
Here is how the rest of our summer looks, IY"H:
Next 2 weeks - No schedule, maybe shlep on buses for day trips to visit far away friends.
3rd week - 18 year old dd runs a week-long kaitana, younger dds help. Tisha B'Av on Monday night/Tuesday.
4th week - No schedule.
5th week - Our family goes away with other kollel and community families for most of the week.
6th week - School starts on Thursday.
There's camp, and there's day camp! (Can't you start seeing what it means talking yourself blue against the wall! This has been discussed many times on this thread already!!!!!)
Day camp, the kind Leiby Kletsky went to, is a daytime program only, with hours ranging form 8:00 am and up, through 3:00 pm and later. Some are simple, usually the boys, where there's learning and then some swimming and/or activities and trips. The girls usually have some davening, a shiur, and then activities, swimming and trips. It gives WM a place to leave their school age kids when they work, and it gives the SAHM a few hours of a break so they get their homes/lives in check, while their kids are in a "supervised" environment.
Now with the sleep away camp, it's a gantz andere maaseh. The camps usually start boys over kitta vav, and girls over the fifth grade. Boys don't really have much of a choice (in chassidishe circles) of going or not, as the ENTIRE cheder/yeshivah system relocates to camp. All the menahalim and melamdim and their families, move up for those two months. Only a handful of boys stay behind in a make-shift cheder in the city. With girls it's a bit different, where going to camp is totally optional, so as the gradea rise, more girls come. In other words, few girls in the younger grades go. In the older grades, you always have more and more girls joining.
The reason for sleep away camp? To provide a "country setting" for the city kids, away from the sweltering heat, confined apartments and tank top clad non jews. This is why for the boys it is mamesh liek not an option to stay behind, except for in extreme cases. The girls who stay behind, if they are younger than 8th grade, they attend a day camp. If they are older, they usually apply for some volunteer work or work in the day camp.
Now since the sleep away camp is more as an escape from the city, those living out of the city do not really have camps. I don't know of any cheder or yeshiva out of the city that has a camp, since they are not city restraint kids and have an almost camp like lifestyle. (Although you can't compare care-free spirit-induced camp life to structure-like suburb life, but now I digress...). There was one camp for the Monroe boys where they provided a camp experience for the boys for 2 weeks each summer, but now that the economy hit hard, they discontinued the program.Suburban girls don;t have camps at all, so they join any camp that is owned by city run directors, if they wish to.
I think I covered it all now.
Lets hear the issues you have with all this.
Thanks, that was inciteful and did answer my question at least regarding chassidish camps, I'd still like to hear from other circles who send to camp.
I guess Israel is plainly less urban than inner city NY. Even if you live in stuffy Geula or BB you are still only an hour away at most from nature trails.
There's camp, and there's day camp! (Can't you start seeing what it means talking yourself blue against the wall! This has been discussed many times on this thread already!!!!!)
Day camp, the kind Leiby Kletsky went to, is a daytime program only, with hours ranging form 8:00 am and up, through 3:00 pm and later. Some are simple, usually the boys, where there's learning and then some swimming and/or activities and trips. The girls usually have some davening, a shiur, and then activities, swimming and trips. It gives WM a place to leave their school age kids when they work, and it gives the SAHM a few hours of a break so they get their homes/lives in check, while their kids are in a "supervised" environment.
Now with the sleep away camp, it's a gantz andere maaseh. The camps usually start boys over kitta vav, and girls over the fifth grade. Boys don't really have much of a choice (in chassidishe circles) of going or not, as the ENTIRE cheder/yeshivah system relocates to camp. All the menahalim and melamdim and their families, move up for those two months. Only a handful of boys stay behind in a make-shift cheder in the city. With girls it's a bit different, where going to camp is totally optional, so as the gradea rise, more girls come. In other words, few girls in the younger grades go. In the older grades, you always have more and more girls joining.
The reason for sleep away camp? To provide a "country setting" for the city kids, away from the sweltering heat, confined apartments and tank top clad non jews. This is why for the boys it is mamesh liek not an option to stay behind, except for in extreme cases. The girls who stay behind, if they are younger than 8th grade, they attend a day camp. If they are older, they usually apply for some volunteer work or work in the day camp.
Now since the sleep away camp is more as an escape from the city, those living out of the city do not really have camps. I don't know of any cheder or yeshiva out of the city that has a camp, since they are not city restraint kids and have an almost camp like lifestyle. (Although you can't compare care-free spirit-induced camp life to structure-like suburb life, but now I digress...). There was one camp for the Monroe boys where they provided a camp experience for the boys for 2 weeks each summer, but now that the economy hit hard, they discontinued the program.Suburban girls don;t have camps at all, so they join any camp that is owned by city run directors, if they wish to.
I think I covered it all now.
Lets hear the issues you have with all this.
Thanks, that was inciteful and did answer my question at least regarding chassidish camps, I'd still like to hear from other circles who send to camp.
I guess Israel is plainly less urban than inner city NY. Even if you live in stuffy Geula or BB you are still only an hour away at most from nature trails.
ow, I imagine you meant insightful
It's midnight here in the Gush, and I'm impressed you could even understand what I meant.
Just finished the milchig dishes, almost all the cooking is done.
Kids have been in bed forever. DH is out on a tiyul with his buddies, so I'm going to be home alone tomorrow with three kids six and under(might send youngest to daycare we'll see). And I'm going to have to scrub my house clean, put all laundry away, feed kids, shower kids and make sure no one destroys the house or each other by the time DH comes back.
Did I mention we're hosting a family we don't know for Fri night?
Am falling asleep at the computer, so better get my act together and get off to bed so I can tackle what tomorrow has in store.
Good night y'all and keep the good work good working.
Just wondering if anyone agrees that the change in expectations goes both ways - people expect a higher standard of living (for good and bad), but people are also expected to do a lot more in terms of making an effort.
Ora, you are my new heroine! And you live in Israel! Wow! Talk about achdus!
Glad to be back in good graces .
Quote:
Whenever I've talked seriously with thoughtful, intelligent people, this is the point that always comes out! BTW, I've had this conversation with at least five or six Holocaust survivors; several name-recognizable talmidei chachomim, as well as a large number of people from various geographical backgrounds.
The biggest issue, based on the conversations I've had over the years, boils down to the following:
There is a subtle but significant difference between the American attitude toward providing for oneself and family and the Jewish view. American attitudes developed out of Puritan theological beliefs, and though various immigrant groups have impacted the application of those beliefs, they still form a strong backdrop for how people raised in America understand the concept of self-sufficiency.
Breathing Puritan Air in the U.S.
The American Puritan view is informed by the concept of predestination. I won't go into the details -- anyone interested can easily Google the concept and get more information that she ever wanted. To put this into day-to-day sociological terms: Puritans believed (and still believe!) that people who live pleasant, easy lives are being rewarded by G-d, and that anyone whose life seems unusually difficulty has displeased G-d in some way through his/her behavior.
Do I need to elucidate how this is different from the Jewish view of hishtadlus? We view our difficulties as tests, not direct punishments. We also believe that we have free will and that all of us have the capacity to respond to our yetzer tov.
Unfortunately, most of us who've grown up in the U.S. have absorbed more than a little Puritanism into our psyches. We've mixed up the concept of hishtadlus with the idea that good behavior leads inexorably to a comfier life. Well, maybe if you're a Puritan. But not if you're a Jew. We believe, on the contrary, that Hashem will test us in a variety of ways to help us purify our middos.
The tests Hashem gives us, too, are not clear-cut. How many of us have heard that poverty is an easier test than wealth? Of course, it sure doesn't seem so when the electric bill is due! But truly devout Jews feel as anxious when they are given great wealth as when they face financial hardship. I am privileged to know one such individual who consults at least 3-4 times a day with the local dayan regarding the halachos of how to spend and give money. Unfortunately, he is in the minority.
The Jew versus the Puritan
A man works hard in school; plans a career; defers gratification . . . becomes a professional in a solid, in-demand field. Yet he seems to have no financial luck. The economy buckles when he graduates; he is laid off due to poor business; he just can't seem to grab hold of the proverbial brass ring. Ironically, many of his classmates who were less serious or less talented seem to be doing fine. Perhaps one inherited a small factory that he's expanded; another lucked into a dead-end job where he created an opportunity. But our hero has no mazel. He and his family live as best they can, pinching pennies.
If this man is a Puritan, the message is clear to him: G-d has rejected him, and his difficulties are punishments. Perhaps, if he figures out what he's doing wrong and becomes closer to G-d, his difficulties will be eased. However, he is obviously not "elected" for G-d's "salvation."
If this man is a Jew, however, his difficulties do not indicate that Hashem has rejected him, but rather, that Hashem is giving him difficult tests to ensure that he reaches his full spiritual potential and recognizes his need for Hashem's help. In fact, far from rejection, this Jew may be especially beloved to Hashem, who is giving him "extra tutoring" through his hardships in order to become more spiritually elevated.
When Jews Nibble from the Puritan Fruit
You can see the problem here: Jews do have the concept of hishtadlus. We are not permitted to sit around and wait for Hashem to swoop in and save us. However, hishtadlus does not result in a comfier life. That is entirely up to Hashem. Some people make good decisions and work hard and live difficulty lives, economically and in other ways. Some people are idiots who can barely walk erect and have no greater hardship than awaiting the arrival of the next shipment of Louis Vuitton bags.
We do hishtadlus because Hashem demands it, not because it results in an easier material life.
We do not assume that people living in poverty do so because of a lack of hishtadlus. That is a Puritan concept. Analyzing or understanding the reason for their suffering in olam hazeh is far beyond our pay grade.
When people on imamother or elsewhere demand to know why anyone with financial difficulties didn't do X, Y, or Z to prevent the situation from developing, they are not 100 percent wrong. It is entirely possible that some people have been lax in the hishtadlus department. But they are definitely not 100 percent right, either. Doing histadlus doesn't lead to lack of financial difficulties. Doing hishtadlus simply means doing our part -- Hashem controls the outcome.
This is a hard idea to swallow for anyone who grew up in the U.S., where over the last 300 years, Puritanism has developed into a kind of "umbrella religion" -- complete religious freedom in the U.S. as long as you work hard, live frugally, and don't engage in anti-social behavior. This is good advice, of course, and it's served many immigrant groups well. We just have to be careful when we start to integrate Puritan-based beliefs into our Torah outlook.
Can you give some examples of the Jewish approach vs. Puritan-influenced approach when it comes to someone making decisions?
For example - if a young person came to you and said, "Fox, I think I'm going to major in philosophy. I don't know what I'll do with that major, but it's a topic I enjoy, so why not?" would you see that as sufficient hishtadlut (if that person is meant to have money, it'll happen as long as they're willing to work?) or insufficient (you need a career path)?
Or if they said, "I don't see the need for school at all - I like my job stocking shelves, and the pay is OK, why can't I just keep doing this?" - would you recommend more hishtadlut?
I could have asked without quoting your entire post, but Barbara set a Most Excellent post-quoting example that I think we should all follow if we want to reach page 100.
Win online arguments!
Enjoy battling it out on the bulletin boards? Like getting stuck into a good, pointless argument with only one aim - to win at any cost? Then this guide is for you - simply follow the guide below and success will be yours!
1. Get friendly
Always refer to your opponent by his/her first name. Your messages will seem warm and friendly, despite the rabid ferocity of their content. After a few exchanges, begin to use a corruption of your opponent's name - begin with "William", then change to "Billy", then change to something like "Billy-Boy". Women don't enjoy having their names shortened either, so make sure that "Mrs. Elizabeth C. Osbourne-Smythe PhD, QC" is always addressed as "Lizzy".
2. Picky! Picky!
Criticizing your opponents spelling or grammar will make you look pedantic. Far better to deliberately misread a message, then follow-up with an utterly incongruous statement. And if they make a factual error - no matter how small - make sure you're on hand to remind them of their error as often as possible.
3. Be selective
Selective editing is a good way to avoid engaging with your opponent's better arguments. Simply delete that intelligent, pointed question which ends paragraph three and reply instead to the weaker arguments
beneath. Should your opponent post something like "I'm sorry but you're talking ****", snip everything but the first two words then graciously accept his apology.
4. Showboat
Once the argument is in full swing, publicly thank all those people who have e-mailed you privately with their messages of support. Claim that you are too busy to reply to each of them personally at the moment, but promise to continue fighting on their behalf.
5. You've got history
Boasting about how long you've been subscribed to a forum or newsgroup is not advised. Far better to make obscure references to the forum/newsgroup when only thirteen people knew it existed. Fondly recall a similar flame-war which took place in 1989 between "Big Al" and "Phyllis from Kent". If a newly arrived opponent produces a particularly strong argument, tell them that you've already discussed (and won) this debate last year and that you've no intention of repeating your crushing arguments all over again for their benefit.
6. There's lots of you
Always refer to yourself in the plural, as though you are speaking on behalf of the whole newsgroup: "all we are trying to say is..." sounds much more pompous than "all I am trying to say is...". When other people join in the thread, the rules are simple: if they side with you, follow-up immediately and enthusiastically, congratulating them on their courage; if they side with your opponent, ignore the tossers.
7. One step ahead
Pre-empt all replies. Tell your opponent that you know exactly how he or she is going to respond to your message because you've seen it all before. List all potential counter-arguments to your position and invite your opponent to choose one.
8. Bamboozle with links
If your opponent's tenacity is proving too much for you, try a Google counter-attack. This involves posting up an endless stream of vaguely related links, insisting that there's more than enough evidence contained in the 50+ linked sites to crush any counter argument. Ensure you keep the references vague and preferably link to pages that are stuffed full of even more links. If your enemy can't find the evidence they're demanding, blame them for their lack of research skills - after all, you've already provided them with ample resources.
9. I didn't say that!
Never apologise for anything, ever.
10. Play dirty
Think the argument isn't going your way? Simply post one long, highly antagonistic message in which you completely misrepresent everything your opponent has said in the last three weeks. End by martyrishly declaring that the argument has dragged on for too long and that you have no choice but to kill-file/ignore your opponent. Ignore any further messages and/or quietly re-register under a new name.
11. Victory is yours!
Won the argument? Congratulations - but remember to be utterly unbearable in victory. Make generous excuses for your opponent's behaviour ("I know you primary school technicians can be under a lot of stress", "the menopause can be a very difficult time", etc), but retain a calm tone of superiority ("the important thing is to learn from your mistakes"). State that you hope your opponent stays around and reassure him/her that other subscribers are sure to forget all about this sorry business in a couple of years.
)
