I don't know if this was discussed or not (I did read the past 85 pages but I can't remember all of it) - forget the mother for a minuter, what about the kids?
I think it is better for many kids over the age of 6 to be in a structured program with peers for at least part of the 10 week summer vacation.
So yes, perhaps you can take 7 kids to the park or to trips and manage them all but I question whether so many weeks of it is ideal for the kids.
I do not speak from experience with my own kids, I speak as an educator.
It was discussed a bit, and I very much agree. I still don't get why people are arguing that camp is necessary for mothers, instead of focusing on the kids.
Of course, even if everyone agrees it's necessary for kids, you'll still have the argument of who should pay and why, the same way different communities have different standards when it comes to SAHMs and tuition breaks.
It's Shabbos in Israel already....if not, don't ask what reply you'd get over these statements....Some Israelis claim that if a teenager can't be trusted to just spend a summer out of a structured program without parental supervision, then the parents failed in raising them since they never had this issue with their kids...
Wanna see? Wait till Shabbos is over in EY.....
You were suggesting that teenagers can't be trusted to be home even for an hour or two here and there on a regular basis. That's pretty different from all day, all summer.
And the main counter-argument wasn't that teens can be trusted, it was that you don't have the power to stop them getting into trouble simply by staying home with them and/or sending them out. Even to a structured program.
Now that is tough. Because keeping girls home every single day in the summer, means providing entertainment every day of the summer, for 9 weeks straight-that's 63+ days! Which mother can do that? Take the kids to 63 outings? And do housework when? Have the older girls, assuming every single family has an older girl, entertain the younger ones for 63 days? Let me see you pull that off, convincing a teenager.
So here is where the challenge lies. And this is why we now have 80+ pages. There is no simple answer. And just because YOU were able, together with your MIL, ONE DAY, have a great day at the park, try 63 consecutive days. With sulking teens and kvetchy meidelech, and then get back to me to report.
See this is just silly. No one said take your kids to the park 63 days in a row.
One day you take them to the park, the next day you make lunch with them (enought for 2 days), the next day you organize crafts while you fold laundry next to them, the next day you go over to a friend, then back to the park etc.
You get the older girls to entertain them one morning while you catch up on housework and give them the afternoon off to do whatever they like. You don't demand help from them round the clock.
I don't know why you think the children are sulky and kvetchy. Maybe because the mother's attitude is rubbing off?
Shalhevet, without referring to anyone specific, as I don't know the families: In general, there is a belief (which started sometime after I began having children), whereby children need to constantly be programmed. If programming fails, mom is supposed to bear the burden and entertain her kids. Suggesting that children simply entertain themselves or day-dream is, basically, quite frowned upon. Even here in Israel, as we know, children are expected to be "busy" from very early on. It's hard for young (or even older) moms to understand that children ARE capable of occupying themselves, sometimes for great lengths of time.
I don't know when this over programming started, but it has a habit of stunting free-thought and free-play.
It's Shabbos in Israel already....if not, don't ask what reply you'd get over these statements....Some Israelis claim that if a teenager can't be trusted to just spend a summer out of a structured program without parental supervision, then the parents failed in raising them since they never had this issue with their kids...
Wanna see? Wait till Shabbos is over in EY.....
You were suggesting that teenagers can't be trusted to be home even for an hour or two here and there on a regular basis. That's pretty different from all day, all summer.
And the main counter-argument wasn't that teens can be trusted, it was that you don't have the power to stop them getting into trouble simply by staying home with them and/or sending them out. Even to a structured program.
Anyhow, if the mother is a SAHM, then she's home all day to babysit all the teens that can't be trusted, no? So why the need to send to a structured program?
FTR, I am not even aware of any camps for teens. OK, there are some super-expensive amazing camps that usually focus on a specific area (say, soccer camp - costs 2500 NIS for 5 days - where the kids learn with a coach, or scuba diving camp, or the like). But regular day camp or regular sleep-away camp for teens? Beyond the 3 day Bnei Akiva trip? Never heard of it. I can't imagine many teens would want to go, it doesn't seem 'cool' enough, no teen wants to feel like they need to be babysat.
So are there places where there are modest, affordable camps for teens? I'm not referring to a 'meeting' twice a week, as I've been told happens sometimes for BY girls - but full time camp. Does it exist for teens? Or are we just referring to another month of learning for boys? And what about the girls? Don't they get into trouble without 'a structured program'?
Table, you aren't hanging out with the right crowd.
Just off the top of my head, I can think of 2 camps in Israel which are appropriate for teens
Camp Dror, run by the OU Israel, which is a 2 week program for about 4000 nis (iirc) - perhaps less but it's expensive
Kayitz BaKibbutz at Kibbutz Shluchot which is less than $2000 for 3 weeks of American-style camp.
I am not sure till which grade these camps accept campers. Surely, at least till age 15 or so.
No one remembers unstructured time for kids?
Eizeh overprogrammed ve'eizeh Batich (go translate that for the non Hebrew speakers someone...).
If there is anyone other than me who reads Haaretz around here (probably not but you never know) then they saw the cartoons in the magazine section a few weeks ago by Daniella London Dekel (Yaron London's daughter) about having children of different ages and what happens to them during the summer. She was talking about having kids in their teens and having a seven or so year old who was going to camp. The teens....sleep. And sleep. and sleep all day and then get up and go out with their friends (where? They are all too young to drive...so to the park or to someone's house) in the evening and "hang out" until the early hours, and then come home and go back to sleep.
And meanwhile her daughter who is in the middle in terms of age is busy talking to her friends on the phone etc. and learning how to paint her nails or whatever. And what her youngest really wants to do is not to go to camp but to be able to sleep and watch tv or just "hang out" etc.
Meaning there is still a whole generation of kids here with lots of unstructured time during the summer, no chugim, no nothing. And that includes little kids too, when mothers are home. You plop them in front of the DVD, give them scrap paper and crayons, and play dough and the like. Why does everyone keep describing their kids as if you don't look for one second and they are scribbling on the walls. I'm not talking about a 2 year old, who can also learn what "not allowed" means...but about three and four and five year olds who seem according to the stories some women tell, to always be going into the fridge and throwing food around.
Doesn't anyone ever teach their kids no? And are there no longer kids in the world who know what that means? How come I managed to teach my five at a very young age what was totally not permitted? There was no crayons all over the furniture, in fact crayons didn't go out of the bedrooms, and food was kadosh. No one was allowed to play with food for any reason EVER. It was a yehareg ve'aal yaavor not only here but at other friends houses as well. As soon as you were old enough to understand - I'm not talking about a 15 month old, but definintely a 30 month old - there were things that were off limits. Scizzors. Knives. Fire. Other people's things. Food. And there was tons of stuff that WASNT off limits that you could play with and build with and climb on and jump on and get your energy out on.
So what's the story here? When you raise a bunch of wilde chayes of course you want them out of the house and will go from door to door raising charity to do so..no?
Like so many things, doesn't it all start at home? And isn't it a mother (parent's) job as part of chinuch to teach their kids limits from an early age? That doesn't mean making them into robots but maybe if normal life had normal structure they wouldn't feel a need for all this "additional" structure...and might be able to cope better with their kids at home...
Table, you aren't hanging out with the right crowd.
Just off the top of my head, I can think of 2 camps in Israel which are appropriate for teens
Camp Dror, run by the OU Israel, which is a 2 week program for about 4000 nis (iirc) - perhaps less but it's expensive
Kayitz BaKibbutz at Kibbutz Shluchot which is less than $2000 for 3 weeks of American-style camp.
I am not sure till which grade these camps accept campers. Surely, at least till age 15 or so.
OK, but both of those camps are way too expensive for almost everyone I know. I can't imagine anyone I know spending that kind of money to send their teen to camp.
Anyway, my teens, like all their friends, seem to manage fine making their own camp. They hang out at home, go to friends, the pool, the beach, and once in a while one of the parents drives everyone to the amusement park or something, or they take the bus. They play with their younger siblings. Most teens I know seem to be doing that kind of thing. The industrious and lucky ones found jobs. But most are just hanging out, resting after a hectic school year. I really don't know ANYONE who in their wildest dreams is thinking of paying 4000 NIS or $2000 for a regular camp (to send their teen to the school trip to Poland, yes. To pay for music lessons or private tutor, yes. But for camp? As you say, I'm hanging round the wrong circles).
I want to add - I would imagine that teens in Brooklyn have it easiest in terms of what they can do to entertain themselves. They live right in the middle of the action. One bus or subway and they have a world of museums, parks, zoos, what not at their fingertips. Don't teens (at least the girls) in Brooklyn get together and take the bus to a nice park and have a picnic? Why do the teens need to rot in stuffy apartments too? As past posters have said, teen girls surely can't be expected just to help out all day. So why is the solution camp? Why not encourage some independent (and cheap/free) activities, just the teens and their friends?
I have a feeling that the "rules" in some of these communities frown upon girls going out to a museum or any other "non jewish" place of interest. Gathering outside in a park they would consider not tznius. So that leaves them with staying home and helping out.
In other words, as I wrote earlier, it's a set up. First you make the rules that limit you, then you say you have no choices and HAVE to do X, Y and Z. Then eventually you claim that these were ALWAYS the rules and it was never any different and that EVERYONE ALWAYS from your group does X, Y and Z. Then when someone else points out to you that members of your group elsewhere have other choices you claim that where you live your group is DIFFERENT than anywhere else. Could be, but only because you LET it be different than your counterparts of YOUR OWN group elsewhere.
I'm not talking about making Bobovers, Vizhnitzers or Satmars into MOs. I'm saying why can't they take a page out of the books of the British, Belgian or Israeli Bobovers, Vizhnitzers or Satmars in some things where the Brooklyn ones are complaining of things being so hard...?
To defend what kitov is saying about teens a bit -
if you're talking about a situation where there IS camp for teens, and 95% are going, then the issue isn't "is 15 old enough for a child to get a summer job/ entertain him or herself," (hopefully most agree that the answer is nearly always "yes," barring special issues), but "if I leave my 15-year-old to entertain herself, she'll be hanging out with these types-of-undesirable-character who are home for the summer - can I reasonably expect her to keep up the standards of observance and behavior that I expect from her while doing that?" And to that, the answer might very well be "no," even for a mature and well-raised child.
I don't understand how any community could make summer camp the norm for teens. Because as Tablepoetry said, what teen would even WANT to? What do they do with them, tell them to go play color war? Make them sit through classes like it's month 11 of school?
(Now, being staff at camp at age 15-16, that I can see. Or an organized program in the neighborhood or elsewhere with 3-4 weeks of volunteer work, or internships, with the occasional summer class - that could be both productive and enjoyable. )
But that said - if you're talking about a community that has managed to make summer camp the norm, the individuals within that community are somewhat limited in their own choices, through no fault of their own. Yes, they could say, "Well screw this, I'm going off to join a different community," but it's not always worth it. Most people can think of things they don't like about their community, or things that make life difficult sometimes, but that doesn't mean we think somewhere else is better.
Change very often begins in a community where there are one or two people who dare to come out against a "norm" which can't work for everyone (let's say for financial reasons) and begin to look for alternatives. As soon as they make enough noise about it there will be families who have been overextending themselves to do what "everyone else does" who see there is an alternative and join the alternative.
But you have to have someone with courage. Are everyone sheep? just look at how the cottage cheese boycott started.
friedasima -
I don't think the issue is that older kids need constant supervision. The problem is when 1-2 little kids need near-constant supervision while the older one needs something else.
For example - the 6-year-old would be entertained if mom could take her to the library and read books for an hour, or help her do workbooks at home, but either activity will be constantly interrupted by the 18-month-old trying to rip up the books/ fall of a chair/ jump out of the window.
Oh, and the 4-year-old knows not to rip books or fall of chairs or out of windows, but is bored by both libraries and workbooks.
I'm not saying it's impossible but I do agree with posters who say that often the easiest and best solution, for the child as well as the mother, is for the 6-year-old to be in a program where she can do art projects and whatever else with children her own age for a few hours a day, so that at least part of her day involves doing the things that interest her without balancing in her siblings' needs or dealing with their interruptions (she'll get plenty of character-building annoying-siblings time in the afternoon and evening). Now, people can't always afford the easiest and best solution, which is what this whole thread is about, but that's a different matter.
Change very often begins in a community where there are one or two people who dare to come out against a "norm" which can't work for everyone (let's say for financial reasons) and begin to look for alternatives. As soon as they make enough noise about it there will be families who have been overextending themselves to do what "everyone else does" who see there is an alternative and join the alternative.
But you have to have someone with courage. Are everyone sheep? just look at how the cottage cheese boycott started.
I agree. But a couple of thoughts
1. It takes people with courage, but individuals shouldn't be criticized for lacking that courage. Encouraged to develop it, yes, criticized, no. We should keep in mind that it's a lot easier for people in Community A who have developed a sustainable norm to keep it going, than for people in Community B to develop that new norm. (In this case, it's a lot easier to keep the teens-home-no-camp norm going when it's the norm, than to be that person who finds two other families to keep teens home together and hopefully start something).
If those in Community A were faced with developing a new norm, maybe only 5% would have the courage to do so, who knows.
2. Related to thought #1 - people are more likely to do something if they feel confident in their abilities, than if they feel weak. So if the goal is to encourage someone the message shouldn't be, "well women in other communities are able to deal, what's wrong with you, are you weak? spoiled? don't have the courage to make change?" but something more along the lines of, it's so amazing what women are already accomplishing, and here's an idea that amazing and capable women like them could probably put into action that could make everyone's life a bit easier in the long run. (I realize that here we're just talking about ideas, not actually trying to change each others' societies, I'm just talking in theory about if we were trying to push change).
But as you said, it's what the thread is all about.
What you are describing is just normal life when you have babies around. We all went through it, at least those of us with a couple of kids. So you jiggle the toddler on your lap while trying to read to the older kid and give the middle one crayons to draw. So he is bored. No one died from being bored. And why can't a four year old enjoy a story as well and not be bored? I can see you saying that you have a nursing 2 month old and a toddler of a year and a half and a five year old. So you are holding the nursling and the toddler is running around and the five year old hears the story. But sometimes you won't be reading the story until the toddler is asleep for his morning or afternoon nap. That's just life. Sure nice to have a structured program but what did mothers of kids do before structured programs existed? They still had nurslings and toddlers and 4 year olds and 6 year olds. But I think they weren't so worried about entertaining them all the time as was said before. Some of us weren't either.
Some kids can play creatively and make their own plans. Tomorrow my dds ages 12 and almost 10 decided to walk to a friend's house, visit a pool during women's hours (which will cost me 50 shekel - and I guess the friend's mother will drive), come home with the friend, and have her sleep over. After they daven and eat a nutritious breakfast, of course. Great.
But my 8 year old ds? No plans. If he thinks he is using my computer, he has to clean up all the tossed Lego from Shabbos first. I'm not doing it. I took a long Shabbos nap, and every room got trashed. Anyone else have that? Kids who need outlets to that degree need more camp - longer than 3 weeks.
We don't think that sleeping and using the computer all day is healthy for kids.
To defend what kitov is saying about teens a bit -
if you're talking about a situation where there IS camp for teens, and 95% are going, then the issue isn't "is 15 old enough for a child to get a summer job/ entertain him or herself," (hopefully most agree that the answer is nearly always "yes," barring special issues), but "if I leave my 15-year-old to entertain herself, she'll be hanging out with these types-of-undesirable-character who are home for the summer - can I reasonably expect her to keep up the standards of observance and behavior that I expect from her while doing that?" And to that, the answer might very well be "no," even for a mature and well-raised child.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I think it is borderline child abuse to leave a teen home for 10 weeks for nothing to do. They will find something to do, and trust me, chances are you wont like it. A few weeks here and there, when there are PEERS who are normal (not just at risk teens who no camp will accept or don't want to be in camp because of the rules or what not) is fine. No one needs to be entertained all day, all the time. But there is a strong social element here that is being disregarded. Teenagers will find friends because they need them and if most of the normal kids are away for part of the summer, they will befriend whomever is around. Of course very few teenagers will go to camp (I'm talking about overnight) for longer than 4 weeks. They will spend the rest of the time with family, visiting family and friends or get a job. But 10 weeks is too long. Way too long. So for a teenager, yes I would be more inclined to contribute or help organize a scholarship.
I also believe that if a community standard/value system is such that people should have large families and that they should be in a structured social environment for much of the summer, then they need to support and back that value either by hugely subsidized programs or scholarships.
So basically what some of you are saying is that Chassidish life...in New York...is different than chassidish life anywhere else (why? why does it have to be that way? It wasn't always that way you know, just a generation and a half ago being chassidish in NY when I was growing up was no different than being chassidish in Antwerp or in Yerushalayim....) and that you are morally supporting the creation of a way of life that means that you have to live ina place where you can't let your kids walk around even in front of their own apartment buildings, where there are no parks (except for all the parks that Saw discussed) and where you have to send them to camp even day camp otherwise...(otherwise what? Otherwise Leiby would still be alive if he hadn't gone to day camp? Anyone mention that in Brooklyn because it was sure mentioned in other places in the world in chassidish communities, heard it with my own ears)...and that mothers who stay home and whose husbands dont earn enough must ask for zedoko to send their kids to camp because they can't keep them at home because G-d forbid the apartment is so small that they might have to make the dining room into a bedroom and eat in the kitchen (hey, we don't even HAVE a dining room, nor do most people in EY)....
It's all making my head spin.
Because it sounds to me like a set up. A group of people all of a sudden decided that they had to live by a certain set of standards which they hadn't lived by until then (did chassidim in the 1940s in america also have ten kids? when did this start?) in a place which was deteriorating in terms of physical conditions (your "Ir hakodesh brooklyn" which has no parks except for all those which Saw describes ) and without giving training for higher paying jobs to the wageearners (who aren't encouraged or sometimes allowed to pursue advanced secular education) and creating a social situation where mothers have to stay home (because of non-stop childbearing) but put the house and the cooking on equal level to their role as being mothers (because of the tremendous push to show that they are such great "balabustas")....and then because of all of this absolutely HAVE to get the kids into camp and preferably out of the city (instead of realizing that so many can't afford this and looking as a community to create totally affordable alternatives inside the city that don't require charity).....AND - and this is the main point - require these families to ask for zedoko from OUTSIDE THE COMMUNITY to send their kids to camp.
Why in the world are you all perpetuating such an unhealthy situation??? Why aren't people in these communities looking for alternatives for one or more of the variables above. Why do people think that it is NORMAL to live like this and ask for zedoko from strangers to continue living like this? There is no determinism involved here, it's not like it was always like this. It evolved. And it can re-evolve differently not giving up the most important things in terms of values. You want a big family - wonderful. You want to live in Brooklyn - also wonderful. But it is not impossible to get a park built in a neighborhood, or cleaned up. For that Americans are always so proud of the fact that they have local congressmen, representatives of a discrict. In city government too. So Why do all these neighborhoods continue to exist without parks? Or maybe there ARE parks but you are too tired to go there? Why?
There always seems to be a reason not to do something or not to change...but maybe it's just easier to kvetch and take zedoko?
Watch out FS, because now you are indirectly beginning to blame our previous chassidishe rebbes, post war EUROPE, tzaddikim and gedolim they were. It was THEY who founded the camps and had the boys and girls relocate to the mountains, and it is their current successors who encourage the "pilgrimage".
Don't make it seem as if it's just "a group of people who made unreasonable choices". Be careful when attacking our gedolim and their choices of our kids' chinuch.
I've been following this thread and it seems obvious some mothers just want to complain, complain, complain. They are not interested in ideas or suggestions. They have decided they cannot handle their children (poor children) because they live in Brooklyn and just want to state that over and over again and insist that everyone else "doesn't understand".
On another note - pickle lady, the martyr act gets old pretty quickly. Is it hard to be alone with no family? yes. Are you the only one like that? no. others do it too and they manage because they have to. that's life.
