The idea is nice, but you can't really know how it will be and how/if you will cope before it's not an exercize, but reality.
Absolutely. And we learn from Dovid Hamelech that asking Hashem to let us use this potential...well don't try that trick at home, kids.
But I really get what FriedaSima's saying. We are being bombarded with wonderful beautiful recipes and we need to realize just how simple we can go and still be well within the lechatchila range. Even if I had the money I wouldn't blow $$ to garnish a cake. And a basic but tasty cake is every bit as precious to Hashem as far as kavod Shabbos or yom tov goes. (Should I mention the blintzes stuffed with cottage cheese scored at $1/lb? I figured that if 1 out of every 3 I bought was good, I still saved money. I'm like that that way. I've also wear thrift shop clothes to chasunas.)
All this is called resourceful. And fun. I don't feel embittered that I employ these strategies. I guess if I ever really have the money I'll leave some of these bargains for the people who need them, but I think I'll always haunt the resale stores.
OK, gotta stop here. It's getting too close to Shabbos. Tbc.
And dont tell me that in your community the norm isn't having very lavish meals with many courses, at least on shabbos? That's all I read about on the threads here!
Okay, I'll bite: why is maintaining a manicure more morally defensible than serving lavish meals on Shabbos?
C'mon! If Shayna Maidel from Flatbush posted on imamother, kvetching about the difficulty of maintaining her manicure, she'd be eaten alive before lunchtime!
And yet, in some odd way, I feel like FriedaSima redeemed her son in law. Nice guy.
And HindaRochel, I LOVE dancing penguins. You can do no wrong now.
1) Fox, hate to say it but as someone knowing and seeing first hand what has happened to America's standing abroad, America and the American way of life HAS lost its edge. Unfortunately.
"Knowing and seeing first hand" -- I thought you were a therapist, not an economist, anthropologist, sociologist, or similar social scientist. Just the expression "America's edge" tells me way more than I need to know about your qualifications to make this judgment. No one who seriously educates him/herself about these issues believes that "America's edge" is some ethereal presence that descends to cloak us in prosperity and goodness when we display the right middos. Whatever "edge" the U.S. might have is the result of limited government involvement, immigration policy, etc. And this "edge" you refer to is not something unique to the U.S. You want to talk about "edges" -- look at Hong Kong!
Let me guess: you read a lot of periodicals and newspapers, some of them more incisive than others. You watch reports on TV about what's going on in the U.S. You chat with other people of your approximate age who grew up in the U.S. You read the Pew Opinion Polls each year about what people think of the U.S.
You don't know or see anything firsthand, nor do I. In fact, the only one here on imamother who has any right to claim that is Saw60sts!
freidasima wrote:
I have nothing against America, I was born there and grew up there. But I also know that because of its size Americans tend to be rather insular and not to realize what is happened to America's values and image abroad. And yes, it counts because one of the reasons it is happening is because of what has gone on in America for the past few years. Bad economics, bad leadership when it comes to foreign affairs, and a type of cockiness that might work when one thinks one is "the best" (just see how many americans act when abroad) but no longer has anything to back it up with. Not financially, not democratically, and not in terms of values, morals or leadership. Again, unfortunately.
That having been said, many countries look at Americans as being very spoiled in many things, at least today, and I'm not talking about third world countries or the African bush where people still draw water from the stream etc. It's like American or at least some of them, are living in a virtual world and one day it will come crashing down on their heads and they won't have any coping skills for "real life". That's what I am expressing here in miniature. To understand see "toughness and coping" below.
Oh, right! The "insular American" argument. Sorry, but that gets no respect from me. Americans are no more insular than anyone else. People around the world think they "know" about the U.S. because they watch a ton of American-made entertainment. But they have little more understanding about the "real" U.S. than I have about life in Turkmenistan.
Ah, the "ugly American" stereotype. Yes, I'm sure some Americans behave dismally abroad. Unfortunately, no one made me in charge of teaching manners to Americans. However, anyone who has been to Florida in the winter lately is quite aware that Americans do not own a monopoly on behaving badly when they leave home. I'll also mention the well-know saying in the upper echelons of the hospitality industry: "Germany must be where the Israelis learned their manners."
Let me bottom-line you here: The only time I hear that the U.S. is "the greatest" is when politicians are trying to whip everyone into a furor. However, I all the time that the U.S. "thinks" it's "the greatest." Most people here in the U.S. are too busy doing all the things you think we should do -- being self-supporting, etc., to stand around and beat our chests. So don't embarrass yourself with these worn-out cliches. They represent an outdated and simplistic mindset.
freidasima wrote:
2) Holocaust mentality. Everyone is the product of where they come from. I'm a member of the second generation. I was brought up by Holocaust survivors and the country in which I live is very influenced in its culture by knowing what happened during the Holocaust and internalizing it in terms of various values of general society, whether we are talking of Europeans or Jews from other lands. But it doesn't have to be "Holocaust" and "Nazis". It can be any type of serious hardship. Those of you who are rolling your eyes, maybe just stop reading now because you live in a different world and can't imagine what I am writing and I daven for you that you will never know from it. But those of us here, and in other places in the world who have seen hardship of different kinds caused by war and its aftermath, have also seen that the tough or at least those knowing how to live "tough" when necessary, actually get through such situations much better than those who dont.
As I wrote in a previous post, that's why the army pushes soldiers to their limits, making them walk tremendous distances with heavy packs on their back. Living off field rations. Sleeping in tents or in the open. To show them that if it happens they can and will survive it. The bullet may kill them but there is little to do about that. The harsh conditions won't. That's physical. Here we are talking mental and situational. I, along with a large part of the world, think that being tough is something very positive. And understand, "tough" doesn't mean being MEAN, it doesn't mean having leathery skin, it doesn't mean "taking food out of garbage pails" as someone here wrote. It means not being spoiled or if you can afford to be spoiled at least knowing how to live if something happens and you can't afford it. It means being a responsible human being and paying the price for your choices and not expecting someone else or some institution or organization to bail you out. It means having survival skills and knowing how to use them if necessary. It means teaching your children those same skills, again, not meaning that they shoudln't enjoy life, but that they should know how to survive and cope (think - toughness means coping) if they don't have the financial resources or situational resources to live as they would like to.
Your arrogance is overwhelming. I gather you characterize yourself as "tough." Well, that's great -- that's like me characterizing myself as a Size 2. But did you ever think that things you consider to be "normal" are evidence of being "spoiled" to other people? Did you ever consider that there are people who might tell you how soft and untested you are? Oh, wait! As an "insular American," I'm unable to grasp the idea that there are people in the world with values different from mine!
freidasima wrote:
You don't see being "tough" as something positive? How easy to just associate it with the "hated Israeli mentality" that some of you have come out against. Well I guess you also hate the Bulgarian mentality, the Greek mentality, the Austrian mentality, the Russian mentality, the Chinese mentality, etc.
Some of you see the kind of toughness and coping I suggest as being "psychotic" as one poster wrote? Fine. I pray for you that you won't need to "cope" like that ever and that for those who can't afford help, there will always be charity and alms to pay for your needs.
I'm not against "toughness," but I have a very different definition of the type of "toughness" I aim for in life: I have no interest in the kind of external toughness that is demonstrated by being unkind (renamed "blunt"), pushy, or in-your-face. That kind of toughness is cheap and meaningless. Real toughness is the ability to be positive in horrible situations; the ability to adapt your thinking; the ability to learn new ways of doing things; the ability to let go of your stereotypes and prejudices for a greater goal.
Israelis have to be tough -- and act tough -- because they're at war. And that's why I don't condemn their "tough" behavior and attitudes. I don't yell back when Israeli clients yell at me. I try not to get agitated when faced with Israelis who are sure I'm trying to take advantage of them. I make an effort to remember that unlike me, the insulated American, their experiences in life have required them to adopt this stance.
Being "tough" has nothing to do with relying on charity to pay for my needs. Hashem provides, and I try to be happy with what He has provided. Lions don't need to roar, and truly tough people don't need to brandish their toughness in others' faces.
freidasima wrote:
3) Generational - I'm getting a bit sick of being bashed for my age here. So for those of you who think that what I am writing only represents the mentality of an old lady, I showed my posts to my daughter this morning who is home for the day. She is in her late 20s. And her comment was: "Mom, that's exactly what I would have written, word for word."
Well, we're approximately the same age -- definitely the same generation. But I see my role as somewhat different. Rather than insulting younger women for their alleged weaknesses or even for their immaturity, I have an opportunity on imamother to advise, persuade, and introduce different ways of thinking. The Torah tells us that gentle words have more impact. So I try my darnedest to set aside my personal hot buttons and experiences and give advice or perspectives that will help in the long run. I don't claim that I necessarily succeed, but that's my goal.
Don't want to be bashed for being an "old lady"? There's an easy way around that: don't bash other people for being young or immature. You were immature once, too. So was I. There's a great line in one of Alexander McCall Smith's Number One Ladies Detective Agency books. I'll have to paraphrase, since I no longer have the book:
Quote:
"We should not judge young people so harshly, because we were once young. When we judge them, we are really condemning the people we once were, and this is wrong, because being young and inexperienced is the natural order of things. Those young people we were grew older and gained wisdom and experience, and that is what will happen to the young people we see around us."
And dont tell me that in your community the norm isn't having very lavish meals with many courses, at least on shabbos? That's all I read about on the threads here!
Okay, I'll bite: why is maintaining a manicure more morally defensible than serving lavish meals on Shabbos?
C'mon! If Shayna Maidel from Flatbush posted on imamother, kvetching about the difficulty of maintaining her manicure, she'd be eaten alive before lunchtime!
And yet, in some odd way, I feel like FriedaSima redeemed her son in law. Nice guy.
And HindaRochel, I LOVE dancing penguins. You can do no wrong now.
Well, more courses = more inches on waistline. Nice manicure = less cooking and cleaning so nails will stay nice = fewer inches on waistline.
How did I do?
Actually, there's nothing morally wrong with elaborate meals. Or simple ones. Or take out. And there's nothing morally wrong with a regular mani/pedi. Or with short clean nails. (Just don't wear sandals with grungy feet; I draw the line there.)
But if you wear your nails so long that you can't change your baby's diaper, there's a problem. Similarly, if you are so obsessed with elaborate meals that it impacts upon your ability to perform other necessary life functions, you may have a problem.
1) Fox, hate to say it but as someone knowing and seeing first hand what has happened to America's standing abroad, America and the American way of life HAS lost its edge. Unfortunately.
"Knowing and seeing first hand" -- I thought you were a therapist, not an economist, anthropologist, sociologist, or similar social scientist. Just the expression "America's edge" tells me way more than I need to know about your qualifications to make this judgment. No one who seriously educates him/herself about these issues believes that "America's edge" is some ethereal presence that descends to cloak us in prosperity and goodness when we display the right middos. Whatever "edge" the U.S. might have is the result of limited government involvement, immigration policy, etc. And this "edge" you refer to is not something unique to the U.S. You want to talk about "edges" -- look at Hong Kong!
Let me guess: you read a lot of periodicals and newspapers, some of them more incisive than others. You watch reports on TV about what's going on in the U.S. You chat with other people of your approximate age who grew up in the U.S. You read the Pew Opinion Polls each year about what people think of the U.S.
You don't know or see anything firsthand, nor do I. In fact, the only one here on imamother who has any right to claim that is Saw60sts!
freidasima wrote:
I have nothing against America, I was born there and grew up there. But I also know that because of its size Americans tend to be rather insular and not to realize what is happened to America's values and image abroad. And yes, it counts because one of the reasons it is happening is because of what has gone on in America for the past few years. Bad economics, bad leadership when it comes to foreign affairs, and a type of cockiness that might work when one thinks one is "the best" (just see how many americans act when abroad) but no longer has anything to back it up with. Not financially, not democratically, and not in terms of values, morals or leadership. Again, unfortunately.
That having been said, many countries look at Americans as being very spoiled in many things, at least today, and I'm not talking about third world countries or the African bush where people still draw water from the stream etc. It's like American or at least some of them, are living in a virtual world and one day it will come crashing down on their heads and they won't have any coping skills for "real life". That's what I am expressing here in miniature. To understand see "toughness and coping" below.
Oh, right! The "insular American" argument. Sorry, but that gets no respect from me. Americans are no more insular than anyone else. People around the world think they "know" about the U.S. because they watch a ton of American-made entertainment. But they have little more understanding about the "real" U.S. than I have about life in Turkmenistan.
Ah, the "ugly American" stereotype. Yes, I'm sure some Americans behave dismally abroad. Unfortunately, no one made me in charge of teaching manners to Americans. However, anyone who has been to Florida in the winter lately is quite aware that Americans do not own a monopoly on behaving badly when they leave home. I'll also mention the well-know saying in the upper echelons of the hospitality industry: "Germany must be where the Israelis learned their manners."
Let me bottom-line you here: The only time I hear that the U.S. is "the greatest" is when politicians are trying to whip everyone into a furor. However, I all the time that the U.S. "thinks" it's "the greatest." Most people here in the U.S. are too busy doing all the things you think we should do -- being self-supporting, etc., to stand around and beat our chests. So don't embarrass yourself with these worn-out cliches. They represent an outdated and simplistic mindset.
freidasima wrote:
2) Holocaust mentality. Everyone is the product of where they come from. I'm a member of the second generation. I was brought up by Holocaust survivors and the country in which I live is very influenced in its culture by knowing what happened during the Holocaust and internalizing it in terms of various values of general society, whether we are talking of Europeans or Jews from other lands. But it doesn't have to be "Holocaust" and "Nazis". It can be any type of serious hardship. Those of you who are rolling your eyes, maybe just stop reading now because you live in a different world and can't imagine what I am writing and I daven for you that you will never know from it. But those of us here, and in other places in the world who have seen hardship of different kinds caused by war and its aftermath, have also seen that the tough or at least those knowing how to live "tough" when necessary, actually get through such situations much better than those who dont.
As I wrote in a previous post, that's why the army pushes soldiers to their limits, making them walk tremendous distances with heavy packs on their back. Living off field rations. Sleeping in tents or in the open. To show them that if it happens they can and will survive it. The bullet may kill them but there is little to do about that. The harsh conditions won't. That's physical. Here we are talking mental and situational. I, along with a large part of the world, think that being tough is something very positive. And understand, "tough" doesn't mean being MEAN, it doesn't mean having leathery skin, it doesn't mean "taking food out of garbage pails" as someone here wrote. It means not being spoiled or if you can afford to be spoiled at least knowing how to live if something happens and you can't afford it. It means being a responsible human being and paying the price for your choices and not expecting someone else or some institution or organization to bail you out. It means having survival skills and knowing how to use them if necessary. It means teaching your children those same skills, again, not meaning that they shoudln't enjoy life, but that they should know how to survive and cope (think - toughness means coping) if they don't have the financial resources or situational resources to live as they would like to.
Your arrogance is overwhelming. I gather you characterize yourself as "tough." Well, that's great -- that's like me characterizing myself as a Size 2. But did you ever think that things you consider to be "normal" are evidence of being "spoiled" to other people? Did you ever consider that there are people who might tell you how soft and untested you are? Oh, wait! As an "insular American," I'm unable to grasp the idea that there are people in the world with values different from mine!
freidasima wrote:
You don't see being "tough" as something positive? How easy to just associate it with the "hated Israeli mentality" that some of you have come out against. Well I guess you also hate the Bulgarian mentality, the Greek mentality, the Austrian mentality, the Russian mentality, the Chinese mentality, etc.
Some of you see the kind of toughness and coping I suggest as being "psychotic" as one poster wrote? Fine. I pray for you that you won't need to "cope" like that ever and that for those who can't afford help, there will always be charity and alms to pay for your needs.
I'm not against "toughness," but I have a very different definition of the type of "toughness" I aim for in life: I have no interest in the kind of external toughness that is demonstrated by being unkind (renamed "blunt"), pushy, or in-your-face. That kind of toughness is cheap and meaningless. Real toughness is the ability to be positive in horrible situations; the ability to adapt your thinking; the ability to learn new ways of doing things; the ability to let go of your stereotypes and prejudices for a greater goal.
Israelis have to be tough -- and act tough -- because they're at war. And that's why I don't condemn their "tough" behavior and attitudes. I don't yell back when Israeli clients yell at me. I try not to get agitated when faced with Israelis who are sure I'm trying to take advantage of them. I make an effort to remember that unlike me, the insulated American, their experiences in life have required them to adopt this stance.
Being "tough" has nothing to do with relying on charity to pay for my needs. Hashem provides, and I try to be happy with what He has provided. Lions don't need to roar, and truly tough people don't need to brandish their toughness in others' faces.
freidasima wrote:
3) Generational - I'm getting a bit sick of being bashed for my age here. So for those of you who think that what I am writing only represents the mentality of an old lady, I showed my posts to my daughter this morning who is home for the day. She is in her late 20s. And her comment was: "Mom, that's exactly what I would have written, word for word."
Well, we're approximately the same age -- definitely the same generation. But I see my role as somewhat different. Rather than insulting younger women for their alleged weaknesses or even for their immaturity, I have an opportunity on imamother to advise, persuade, and introduce different ways of thinking. The Torah tells us that gentle words have more impact. So I try my darnedest to set aside my personal hot buttons and experiences and give advice or perspectives that will help in the long run. I don't claim that I necessarily succeed, but that's my goal.
Don't want to be bashed for being an "old lady"? There's an easy way around that: don't bash other people for being young or immature. You were immature once, too. So was I. There's a great line in one of Alexander McCall Smith's Number One Ladies Detective Agency books. I'll have to paraphrase, since I no longer have the book:
Quote:
"We should not judge young people so harshly, because we were once young. When we judge them, we are really condemning the people we once were, and this is wrong, because being young and inexperienced is the natural order of things. Those young people we were grew older and gained wisdom and experience, and that is what will happen to the young people we see around us."
First my daughter never kvetches about her manicure. She just does her nails and that's that.
How on earth do you know that she never kvetches about her nails? How do you know she's not calling a friend to vent about it? Even if she's not, I asked you to imagine a scenario.
freidasima wrote:
Third when I talk about toughness you seem to equate that with rudeness and pushiness. That's not at all what I am talking about, that's your peirush Rashi.
No, I believe you used the expression to defend your bluntness or "tough love," claiming that it was appropriate in therapy with your clients. You were the one who equated toughness with bluntness, not me.
freidasima wrote:
I mean the ability to get on with real life and be responsible for your choices and pay the price for them. That's not what I see regarding a lot of posters on this thread.
I actually see the opposite. While I occasionally see examples of the kind of entitlement and "spoilage" you complain about, those posters get shut down, pronto!
freidasima wrote:
Last, if you ask most americans if they think they are the greatest country in the world and the american "way of life" is the best in the world, they will undoubtedly say "yes of course".
Well, duh! Everyone will respond that way if asked. Ask anyone about his/her home country/region/city, and he/she will talk about how it's the greatest place in the world. And this proves . . . what, exactly? That Americans are like everyone else, but you think they shouldn't be?
freidasima wrote:
This has been proven over and over in surveys and before you knock surveys, it gets you to many more answers than just checking with your friends and neighbors.
Um, yes. But you have to understand what questions are being asked, who is doing the asking, and who is being asked.
freidasima wrote:
Then go and ask whether anyone outside of america thinks that america's position has eroded tremendously in the past few years and you will get an across the board "yes".
What on earth gives people outside the U.S. the right to comment about the country's "position"? Why is it okay for every kibbitzer in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and Africa to give his opinion about the U.S., but if any American from a random redneck to a distinguished scholar comments about life in Kenya, he's immediately assailed as an example of U.S. imperialism and cultural bias?
Plus, I would think people would be happy that the U.S. is no longer the 800-lb. gorilla in everyone's living room. Were things better for the world when the U.S. dominated manufacturing and people in Asia lived in poverty? I don't understand the logic: on one hand, everyone outside the U.S. hates the dominance of American culture. So why isn't everyone cheering now that countries like India, China, et. al, are in a better position to improve their citizens' lives?
freidasima wrote:
Why do you feel this need to defend american superiority? That's not what's being discussed in this thread at all.
"American superiority"? Have you read a single thing I've written? No one here, including me, has ever suggested that the U.S. is superior in any way shape or form.
But why am I so focused on this tangential issue? Because I'm fed up to the gills with subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle digs at Americans and/or American Jewish culture. Now, I’m the first to admit that there is plenty to criticize in the U.S. as well as in American Jewish culture. But having spent considerable effort to identify yourself as an Israeli -- and not simply a Jew living in EY, but someone who has absorbed Israeli culture and identifies with it – you lose the right to comment on the state of affairs in the U.S. as well as on how you perceive our “toughness” or lack thereof. Unless you are making an academic point or you are a political agitator of some type, it is insulting to speak pejoratively about other people’s national cultures.
Aside from the sly anti-American tone, you keep offering descriptions of your family’s life, telling us that this is “normal.” Well, I agree. What makes you think most of us live differently? A handful of posters who claim they “can’t cope” with their kids? Don’t you remember days when you felt like you couldn’t cope? I certainly do! And if I’d been able to go on imamother, I’m sure I would have said, “Oh, this is too hard. I can’t cope.” But somehow I managed, just as you did. And somehow, all those “can’t cope” posters will get through their days, too.
I suppose it’s possible to get to the age of fifty-something without ever feeling like, “this is too hard; I can’t cope,” but if that’s the case, I wouldn’t brag. People might wonder if you’re really that capable and “tough” – or if you’ve never really been tested to the limit of your abilities . . .
First my daughter never kvetches about her manicure. She just does her nails and that's that.
How on earth do you know that she never kvetches about her nails? How do you know she's not calling a friend to vent about it? Even if she's not, I asked you to imagine a scenario.
freidasima wrote:
Third when I talk about toughness you seem to equate that with rudeness and pushiness. That's not at all what I am talking about, that's your peirush Rashi.
No, I believe you used the expression to defend your bluntness or "tough love," claiming that it was appropriate in therapy with your clients. You were the one who equated toughness with bluntness, not me.
freidasima wrote:
I mean the ability to get on with real life and be responsible for your choices and pay the price for them. That's not what I see regarding a lot of posters on this thread.
I actually see the opposite. While I occasionally see examples of the kind of entitlement and "spoilage" you complain about, those posters get shut down, pronto!
freidasima wrote:
Last, if you ask most americans if they think they are the greatest country in the world and the american "way of life" is the best in the world, they will undoubtedly say "yes of course".
Well, duh! Everyone will respond that way if asked. Ask anyone about his/her home country/region/city, and he/she will talk about how it's the greatest place in the world. And this proves . . . what, exactly? That Americans are like everyone else, but you think they shouldn't be?
freidasima wrote:
This has been proven over and over in surveys and before you knock surveys, it gets you to many more answers than just checking with your friends and neighbors.
Um, yes. But you have to understand what questions are being asked, who is doing the asking, and who is being asked.
freidasima wrote:
Then go and ask whether anyone outside of america thinks that america's position has eroded tremendously in the past few years and you will get an across the board "yes".
What on earth gives people outside the U.S. the right to comment about the country's "position"? Why is it okay for every kibbitzer in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and Africa to give his opinion about the U.S., but if any American from a random redneck to a distinguished scholar comments about life in Kenya, he's immediately assailed as an example of U.S. imperialism and cultural bias?
Plus, I would think people would be happy that the U.S. is no longer the 800-lb. gorilla in everyone's living room. Were things better for the world when the U.S. dominated manufacturing and people in Asia lived in poverty? I don't understand the logic: on one hand, everyone outside the U.S. hates the dominance of American culture. So why isn't everyone cheering now that countries like India, China, et. al, are in a better position to improve their citizens' lives?
freidasima wrote:
Why do you feel this need to defend american superiority? That's not what's being discussed in this thread at all.
"American superiority"? Have you read a single thing I've written? No one here, including me, has ever suggested that the U.S. is superior in any way shape or form.
But why am I so focused on this tangential issue? Because I'm fed up to the gills with subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle digs at Americans and/or American Jewish culture. Now, I’m the first to admit that there is plenty to criticize in the U.S. as well as in American Jewish culture. But having spent considerable effort to identify yourself as an Israeli -- and not simply a Jew living in EY, but someone who has absorbed Israeli culture and identifies with it – you lose the right to comment on the state of affairs in the U.S. as well as on how you perceive our “toughness” or lack thereof. Unless you are making an academic point or you are a political agitator of some type, it is insulting to speak pejoratively about other people’s national cultures.
Aside from the sly anti-American tone, you keep offering descriptions of your family’s life, telling us that this is “normal.” Well, I agree. What makes you think most of us live differently? A handful of posters who claim they “can’t cope” with their kids? Don’t you remember days when you felt like you couldn’t cope? I certainly do! And if I’d been able to go on imamother, I’m sure I would have said, “Oh, this is too hard. I can’t cope.” But somehow I managed, just as you did. And somehow, all those “can’t cope” posters will get through their days, too.
I suppose it’s possible to get to the age of fifty-something without ever feeling like, “this is too hard; I can’t cope,” but if that’s the case, I wouldn’t brag. People might wonder if you’re really that capable and “tough” – or if you’ve never really been tested to the limit of your abilities . . .
First my daughter never kvetches about her manicure. She just does her nails and that's that.
How on earth do you know that she never kvetches about her nails? How do you know she's not calling a friend to vent about it? Even if she's not, I asked you to imagine a scenario.
freidasima wrote:
Third when I talk about toughness you seem to equate that with rudeness and pushiness. That's not at all what I am talking about, that's your peirush Rashi.
No, I believe you used the expression to defend your bluntness or "tough love," claiming that it was appropriate in therapy with your clients. You were the one who equated toughness with bluntness, not me.
freidasima wrote:
I mean the ability to get on with real life and be responsible for your choices and pay the price for them. That's not what I see regarding a lot of posters on this thread.
I actually see the opposite. While I occasionally see examples of the kind of entitlement and "spoilage" you complain about, those posters get shut down, pronto!
freidasima wrote:
Last, if you ask most americans if they think they are the greatest country in the world and the american "way of life" is the best in the world, they will undoubtedly say "yes of course".
Well, duh! Everyone will respond that way if asked. Ask anyone about his/her home country/region/city, and he/she will talk about how it's the greatest place in the world. And this proves . . . what, exactly? That Americans are like everyone else, but you think they shouldn't be?
freidasima wrote:
This has been proven over and over in surveys and before you knock surveys, it gets you to many more answers than just checking with your friends and neighbors.
Um, yes. But you have to understand what questions are being asked, who is doing the asking, and who is being asked.
freidasima wrote:
Then go and ask whether anyone outside of america thinks that america's position has eroded tremendously in the past few years and you will get an across the board "yes".
What on earth gives people outside the U.S. the right to comment about the country's "position"? Why is it okay for every kibbitzer in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and Africa to give his opinion about the U.S., but if any American from a random redneck to a distinguished scholar comments about life in Kenya, he's immediately assailed as an example of U.S. imperialism and cultural bias?
Plus, I would think people would be happy that the U.S. is no longer the 800-lb. gorilla in everyone's living room. Were things better for the world when the U.S. dominated manufacturing and people in Asia lived in poverty? I don't understand the logic: on one hand, everyone outside the U.S. hates the dominance of American culture. So why isn't everyone cheering now that countries like India, China, et. al, are in a better position to improve their citizens' lives?
freidasima wrote:
Why do you feel this need to defend american superiority? That's not what's being discussed in this thread at all.
"American superiority"? Have you read a single thing I've written? No one here, including me, has ever suggested that the U.S. is superior in any way shape or form.
But why am I so focused on this tangential issue? Because I'm fed up to the gills with subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle digs at Americans and/or American Jewish culture. Now, I’m the first to admit that there is plenty to criticize in the U.S. as well as in American Jewish culture. But having spent considerable effort to identify yourself as an Israeli -- and not simply a Jew living in EY, but someone who has absorbed Israeli culture and identifies with it – you lose the right to comment on the state of affairs in the U.S. as well as on how you perceive our “toughness” or lack thereof. Unless you are making an academic point or you are a political agitator of some type, it is insulting to speak pejoratively about other people’s national cultures.
Aside from the sly anti-American tone, you keep offering descriptions of your family’s life, telling us that this is “normal.” Well, I agree. What makes you think most of us live differently? A handful of posters who claim they “can’t cope” with their kids? Don’t you remember days when you felt like you couldn’t cope? I certainly do! And if I’d been able to go on imamother, I’m sure I would have said, “Oh, this is too hard. I can’t cope.” But somehow I managed, just as you did. And somehow, all those “can’t cope” posters will get through their days, too.
I suppose it’s possible to get to the age of fifty-something without ever feeling like, “this is too hard; I can’t cope,” but if that’s the case, I wouldn’t brag. People might wonder if you’re really that capable and “tough” – or if you’ve never really been tested to the limit of your abilities . . .
Thank you, Fox. You've really wrote some wonderful posts and I appreciate the time you've put into them. You've also started normalcy flowing through this thread again.
First, FS, you have NO IDEA what I did or did not do.
Second, as much as you learn from an exercize, it is just an exercize, and that makes all the difference. Panicking, losing it, stealing someone's food... wont happen during an exercize, because it is an exercize. Real life is another story. Yes the rest (hunting fishing building a hut) you can do.
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That's what we all did as kids. Just to see what our parents had lived through.
My father would have been extremely upset. Just saying.
For information, my mother is around your age and was certainly not raised that way.
Actually, the *all women who want their kids to go to camp should be subsidized* argument has been made repeatedly, and is the origin of this thread. Camp is a necessity. No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. She who would not give charity for these purposes (and that would be me) lacks ahavat Yisrael. I'm old and don't understand the way parenting is today, making camp a necessity, and should get my nose out of the air and stop being a bee-yotch (I added the last word, but the rest is from this thread).
I have not and neither have anyone else said that sahm's need camp. We all said that the mothers who cant cope need it and we also agreed that most can handle it. Would you please stop saying that none of the sahm on imamother can cope, its insulting (now its my tunr to be insulted). I actually take pride in doing what I do even when on some days it doesnt seem that I could handle it.
For the record I would not give tzedokoh to fund camps . We do not have very much money and the tzedoko we give goes to tzedoko organisations or organisations that helped us in the past as well as causes that we prefer to give to and occasionally when I am shopping and I see a homeless person selling The Big Issue I will buy a magazine from, not because I particularly like the magazine but it enables the homeless person to keep his dignity as he buys the magazine and then sells it and keeps the money.
Anyways, despite the fact that I wouldnt choose to give tzedokoh to fund camp I am not against the idea behind it and have no issue with ppl giving tzedokoh to this or benefitting from it. I should probably mention that to date I havent seen anywhere or or anyone asking for tzedoko for camp, if someone came and asked me directly I might give it would depend on how much money I'd have at the time (if any) and if there was a lot of ppl asking for tzedokoh for different causes I might choose to give to another cause. If I had the money and there were no one else to give to I would probably give to them. I wouldnt set out to intentioally give to fund camp though.
I have seen tzedaka for even worse things. Apartments etc. Camp you can bet many kids go. Ownership you can be many many many frum don't.
ITA
We have been married for 8 1/2 years and have been renting the whole time. IYH we will be able to buy one day but not in the foreseeable future. I would certainly not give money we don't have to pay for someone else to buy an apartment. I guess it all depends on what people's priorities are.
Actually, the *all women who want their kids to go to camp should be subsidized* argument has been made repeatedly, and is the origin of this thread. Camp is a necessity. No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. She who would not give charity for these purposes (and that would be me) lacks ahavat Yisrael. I'm old and don't understand the way parenting is today, making camp a necessity, and should get my nose out of the air and stop being a bee-yotch (I added the last word, but the rest is from this thread).
I have not and neither have anyone else said that sahm's need camp. We all said that the mothers who cant cope need it and we also agreed that most can handle it. Would you please stop saying that none of the sahm on imamother can cope, its insulting (now its my tunr to be insulted). I actually take pride in doing what I do even when on some days it doesnt seem that I could handle it.
For the record I would not give tzedokoh to fund camps . We do not have very much money and the tzedoko we give goes to tzedoko organisations or organisations that helped us in the past as well as causes that we prefer to give to and occasionally when I am shopping and I see a homeless person selling The Big Issue I will buy a magazine from, not because I particularly like the magazine but it enables the homeless person to keep his dignity as he buys the magazine and then sells it and keeps the money.
Anyways, despite the fact that I wouldnt choose to give tzedokoh to fund camp I am not against the idea behind it and have no issue with ppl giving tzedokoh to this or benefitting from it. I should probably mention that to date I havent seen anywhere or or anyone asking for tzedoko for camp, if someone came and asked me directly I might give it would depend on how much money I'd have at the time (if any) and if there was a lot of ppl asking for tzedokoh for different causes I might choose to give to another cause. If I had the money and there were no one else to give to I would probably give to them. I wouldnt set out to intentioally give to fund camp though.
I wasn't aware that you were posting under dozens of names, plus anonymously, that you think that when I say people have posted, I mean you. Get over yourself.
I don't have time to go through 70-some pages of posts to pull everything. Here are a few:
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So girls,Ahavas Yisroel gone out the window? Woman works hard, husband out of a job and needs a break to stay sane. Why just not accept it at that? She needs help but you don't or didn't get it when you felt you needed it more? Then I feel sad for you too!Camp is a good thing to make our lives easier. Hashem knows we have it hard enough already. Every child has a right to good Jewish things in life and shouldn't be discriminated against because of financial constraints. Op, I hope someone will help you out with this. You deserve it and they need it to enrich their lives. Why should they grow up with a chip on their shoulder that they didn't get help to enjoy what other children do? Rather they should grow up knowing that people are generous in their community, that we value this and that we help each other. Enough with FRUGAL SHMUGAL and the ' if you can't afford it then tough!' Where is our LOVE for each other?
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Children that grow up in financially struggling families will automatically understand that their every whim and wish will not be granted .Here we are talking about CAMP.An experience that every child has a right to especially where it is the norm in their community. Just go on to collive or something similar and see all the excited children leaving on the buses. How can anyone be so cruel as to point fingers and say to children 'you can't go because your parents don't earn enough money and too bad for you just put your chin up and bear it' . YUK!
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Tamiri do you have any idea what it's like to live on a fourth floor walkup with no porch in the crazy summer heat???
The kids get in each other's way. You cant clean up the house, ever. theyre bored. you cant nurse the baby. you cant cook dinner. Going out means getting everyone dressed, cleaned up, food for everyone. down 3 flights of stairs. trek in the heat to a subway or bus. finally get to your destination. field everyone's requests, mediate everyone's fights. arrive home exhausted 4 hours later to a messy house, no dinner, cranky kids.
Try doing that for 10 weeks.
it's a one-way ticket to the nut-house.
You really dont understand that some people really, really, really need their children to be in some kind of structured program for 5 hours a day 4 days a week? That some parents really, really need the breather???
Do you KNOW what it's like to be in the hot concrete city all summer with the kids stuck in the cramped 2 bedroom railroad apartment???
Day camp is really, really not a luxury for city kids.
And *I* am the one who keeps arguing that SAHMs, for the most part, can cope. Only to be told that I don't understand, and that I'm insulting.
So, are you saying we all agree? That MOST people have no need for camp? That for MOST people, its a total luxury? Then good.
I was replying to the comment that "No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. ". I would fall under that category so therefore am insulted. I dont think thats a case of getting over myself when you actually said "No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. " Unless I misunderstood you (which is entirely possible).
I was replying to the comment that "No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. ". I would fall under that category so therefore am insulted. I dont think thats a case of getting over myself when you actually said "No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. " Unless I misunderstood you (which is entirely possible).
Apologies if I was unclear (as I almost certainly was if you misunderstood me).
As I read this thread, that's the argument that certain people have been making. Others have argued that camp is a necessity for all SAHMs. Not merely some who have limitations, whether temporary or permanent. Or other specific causes or reasons. But for ALL of them, because its impossible for all, or most, SAHM to care for her kids on a daily basis.
OTHERS. Not me. I disagree -- vehemently -- with that. While many SAHM may *choose* to send all or some kids to camp, the vast majority of them are wonderful parents who can cope with their kids. Actually, I assume most who send to camp are wonderful as well. They just choose to send to camp.
Camp is a luxury because most parents can handle their kids over the summer.
So I think that, on this point at least, we agree.
Ah, thank you for clarifying, no offense taken then. I gotta run as Shabbos is pretty much upon us here (I have about the time to finish this sentence, close the computer, put it away and bentch licht).
Good Shabbos all.
No, you mentioned a "warzone" and no one talked about a "warzone" certainly not me. My definition however of a warzone is what my friend's house looked like after being shelled in the war. Broken walls. Cracked windows. Glass all over. Total mess, dust and debris.
I don't think that a messy house is a "warzone", that's a big exaggeration. I have seen my daughter's house when she has her son up and his three first cousins, all small, playing all day. The living room is wall to wall toys, every spoon and ladle is out because they play with them and they are scattered all over. The dishes are still in the sink until nighttime. The floor is sticky where the kids dropped food (living and dining room all together). There are piles of laundry on the sofa taken off the line and not yet folded or sorted, the garbage pail is overflowing because my daughter didn't want to walk down three flights pregnant and will wait until her husband gets home, and there is no food waiting for him to eat.
Then her husband walks in. He gives her a kiss, throws his son into the air, mindless of the mess, gives big hugs to his nieces and nephew, goes to wash his hands and starts on the dishes while my daughter is playing with the kids and trying to feed the two youngest. For dinner they often cut up break, make a salad and fry eggs. Or boil water, make pasta and throw in tomato sauce and cheese. My son in law, trophy wife and all that, is not averse to cooking or washing up - his "trophy" involves his wife looking great. If her nails aren't done he will get unhappy, but he will also watch the kids while she sits in the evening and does her nails for him.
Now add to that the fact that he is a surgical resident and walked in after working for 30 hours straight and if he was lucky he dozed for an hour or two if it was quiet during the night. And that's what he walks into. And he finds it normal because that's what it means to have a passel of kids around. A mess. No food ready. Dishes in the sink, and mommy watching the kids and playing with them.
So? He adores his son. He will adore the next one (let's hope it's a girl another boy like that and there won't be a single thing left standing in the house), he adores his neices and nephew....and let's not forget the dog who actually sleeps with them in bed (this is a massive dog, put a yarmulkeh on her and a pair of pants, have her stand up on her hind legs and you would think it's a past bar mitzva boy with a thin face and scraggly whiskers and add him to a minyan!)...who has to be taken care of.
Yeah that's normal life for many people.
And dont tell me that in your community the norm isn't having very lavish meals with many courses, at least on shabbos? That's all I read about on the threads here!
therein lies the cultural difference. Normal by you, unacceptable by us. Yes, if there is a temporary extenuating circumstance - the wife isnt feeling well,a child isnt well, the mother had a particularly hard day - it's fine. but for this to be every single day all year? no man, or woman, or child in my community would be able to handle such a situation day in and day out. If I would make eggs and salad for supper, well my dh who shlepped boxes for 9 hours without eating much would end up buying himself a pastrami sandwich half an hour later.
Bkitzer, as I sad, massive cultureal differences. there is absolutely nothing left to discuss.
and what five course meals??? we do chicken soup, kugel and farfel every friday ight.eggs and cholent every shabbos day. ze hu. (challah and fish too of coruse.)
I was replying to the comment that "No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. ". I would fall under that category so therefore am insulted. I dont think thats a case of getting over myself when you actually said "No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. " Unless I misunderstood you (which is entirely possible).
Apologies if I was unclear (as I almost certainly was if you misunderstood me).
As I read this thread, that's the argument that certain people have been making. Others have argued that camp is a necessity for all SAHMs. Not merely some who have limitations, whether temporary or permanent. Or other specific causes or reasons. But for ALL of them, because its impossible for all, or most, SAHM to care for her kids on a daily basis.
OTHERS. Not me. I disagree -- vehemently -- with that. While many SAHM may *choose* to send all or some kids to camp, the vast majority of them are wonderful parents who can cope with their kids. Actually, I assume most who send to camp are wonderful as well. They just choose to send to camp.
Camp is a luxury because most parents can handle their kids over the summer.
So I think that, on this point at least, we agree.
Most SAHMs in my community handle their kids home all day for the 2 weeks interssesion in june and in sept. but again, they would have a hrd time doing it for 10-11 weeks. Life would have to be put totally on hold that time - what do you do with doctor/dentist appts where you cant drag along the entire kit and caboodle? what about other errands/shopping which can't wait 10 weeks? I'm sure there are supermoms who can do it, esp if you have a nice large apt witha porch or backyard; but if you live like I do, on a 3rd floor walkup with no backyard and very active kids, they would be worn out after 2 weeks.
bh, girls' day camp is very affordable where I live, and it's built into the boys tuition.
And yet, in some odd way, I feel like FriedaSima redeemed her son in law. Nice guy.
. We do not have very much money and the tzedoko we give goes to tzedoko organisations or organisations that helped us in the past as well as causes that we prefer to give to and occasionally when I am shopping and I see a homeless person selling The Big Issue I will buy a magazine from, not because I particularly like the magazine but it enables the homeless person to keep his dignity as he buys the magazine and then sells it and keeps the money.
