1) Fox, hate to say it but as someone knowing and seeing first hand what has happened to America's standing abroad, America and the American way of life HAS lost its edge. Unfortunately.
I have nothing against America, I was born there and grew up there. But I also know that because of its size Americans tend to be rather insular and not to realize what is happened to America's values and image abroad. And yes, it counts because one of the reasons it is happening is because of what has gone on in America for the past few years. Bad economics, bad leadership when it comes to foreign affairs, and a type of cockiness that might work when one thinks one is "the best" (just see how many americans act when abroad) but no longer has anything to back it up with. Not financially, not democratically, and not in terms of values, morals or leadership. Again, unfortunately.
That having been said, many countries look at Americans as being very spoiled in many things, at least today, and I'm not talking about third world countries or the African bush where people still draw water from the stream etc. It's like American or at least some of them, are living in a virtual world and one day it will come crashing down on their heads and they won't have any coping skills for "real life". That's what I am expressing here in miniature. To understand see "toughness and coping" below.
Since we are on the subject of generalizations.
Every culture or country has thier genralizations.
Israelis- Often give unsolicited advice and are rude. Also usually poorly supervise their kids.
French- Known worldwide as rude and stingy (sorry Ruchel)
Russian- Secretive and not easily trusted.
South African/ South American - Grew up with full time maids as a norm. I call that spoiled. married to one
Americans - Spoiled in the sense that we have alot of gadgets.
Then there is you as therapist. You chose psychology, one of the easiest degrees. Therapists are known to having a therapist themselves. They usually have a a high image for them self since they counseling people as a job. Also often children of therapist, need therapists too.
We all know that every culture has what they call a "norm". My husband grew up with a full time maid and that was a norm for his community. It wasn't considered lazy but a norm. Mamabear's community has what they consider their norms. The women is their community pride themselves on running a home with dinner on the table and well dressed children.
My community values every jewish neshama that is brought into this world. Our Rebbe gave big talks about not limiting your family due to fear of financial problems and that every child brings a brocha of parnasa. That is why we do have subsidized tuition breaks and camps scholarships.
If your community doesn't believe this way then fine but other communities do. Not being able to keep your 8 children in a small apt all day isn't seen as not coping but seen as normal.
When a women says that she can handle all of her kids. Later you find out that she has 2 kids, calm ones that like to read or color. Then you find out that her kids often spend the day by her parents of IL's or maybe a shabbos. Then you find out that when she has a baby that her mother or MIL come and spend 2 weeks by her house to help. Her mother of MIL plans the bris/ sholom zahor/ kiddush. Then she mentions that she has never made pesach because "she can't with little kids". So sometimes women who are coping actually aren't but have lots of help that they don't even recognize.
Gotta chime in here, Chavs. Big Issue sellers are lazy bums (or work-shy students) who don't want to get a proper job. They are on every corner, sometimes outside every store, & if I hear "Big Issue, luv???" in a broad Yorkshire accent ONE MORE TIME I will break his eyeballs.
And I refuse to buy a Communist rag that I am certain (I have not read it so I am going out on a limb here, but drawing on what I do know) has anti-semitic, anti-Israel, anti-conservative rhetoric.
Back to Tzedaka. As I mumble to myself when I pass the really offensive (not smelly, just obnoxious) Sheinkeit Lady "don't tell me how much I spend or whom to give my $$ to." You choose to give to an organization who helped you. I find that really commendable. Others (HC??? ) prefer to give $$ to the manicurist Others, like me, prefer to do both.
A nice young Israeli man came to the door before with a tzetel asking for $$ cos he's getting married. Now I felt so bad for him & I gave quite nicely. Some causes strike me more than others.
It's all down to choice. We all give...BTW, I NEVER walk past the Salvation Army without giving them something...they were very good to my father during his National Service, giving him paper, envelopes & stamps so he could write home. They never tried to convert him, either (the only frum guy in his unit.) Tzedaka is Tzedaka, although Jewish causes always come first.
I hope everyone has what she needs, B'gashmius & B'ruchniyus & we all have enough to help those who need a bit more - even if we think they need to step up to the plate. Because sometimes, they just can't.
1) Fox, hate to say it but as someone knowing and seeing first hand what has happened to America's standing abroad, America and the American way of life HAS lost its edge. Unfortunately.
I have nothing against America, I was born there and grew up there. But I also know that because of its size Americans tend to be rather insular and not to realize what is happened to America's values and image abroad. And yes, it counts because one of the reasons it is happening is because of what has gone on in America for the past few years. Bad economics, bad leadership when it comes to foreign affairs, and a type of cockiness that might work when one thinks one is "the best" (just see how many americans act when abroad) but no longer has anything to back it up with. Not financially, not democratically, and not in terms of values, morals or leadership. Again, unfortunately.
That having been said, many countries look at Americans as being very spoiled in many things, at least today, and I'm not talking about third world countries or the African bush where people still draw water from the stream etc. It's like American or at least some of them, are living in a virtual world and one day it will come crashing down on their heads and they won't have any coping skills for "real life". That's what I am expressing here in miniature. To understand see "toughness and coping" below.
Since we are on the subject of generalizations.
Every culture or country has thier genralizations.
Israelis- Often give unsolicited advice and are rude. Also usually poorly supervise their kids.
French- Known worldwide as rude and stingy (sorry Ruchel)
Russian- Secretive and not easily trusted.
South African/ South American - Grew up with full time maids as a norm. I call that spoiled. married to one
Americans - Spoiled in the sense that we have alot of gadgets.
Then there is you as therapist. You chose psychology, one of the easiest degrees. Therapists are known to having a therapist themselves. They usually have a a high image for them self since they counseling people as a job. Also often children of therapist, need therapists too.
We all know that every culture has what they call a "norm". My husband grew up with a full time maid and that was a norm for his community. It wasn't considered lazy but a norm. Mamabear's community has what they consider their norms. The women is their community pride themselves on running a home with dinner on the table and well dressed children.
My community values every jewish neshama that is brought into this world. Our Rebbe gave big talks about not limiting your family due to fear of financial problems and that every child brings a brocha of parnasa. That is why we do have subsidized tuition breaks and camps scholarships.
If your community doesn't believe this way then fine but other communities do. Not being able to keep your 8 children in a small apt all day isn't seen as not coping but seen as normal.
When a women says that she can handle all of her kids. Later you find out that she has 2 kids, calm ones that like to read or color. Then you find out that her kids often spend the day by her parents of IL's or maybe a shabbos. Then you find out that when she has a baby that her mother or MIL come and spend 2 weeks by her house to help. Her mother of MIL plans the bris/ sholom zahor/ kiddush. Then she mentions that she has never made pesach because "she can't with little kids". So sometimes women who are coping actually aren't but have lots of help that they don't even recognize.
Gotta chime in here, Chavs. Big Issue sellers are lazy bums (or work-shy students) who don't want to get a proper job. They are on every corner, sometimes outside every store, & if I hear "Big Issue, luv???" in a broad Yorkshire accent ONE MORE TIME I will break his eyeballs.
And I refuse to buy a Communist rag that I am certain (I have not read it so I am going out on a limb here, but drawing on what I do know) has anti-semitic, anti-Israel, anti-conservative rhetoric.
Back to Tzedaka. As I mumble to myself when I pass the really offensive (not smelly, just obnoxious) Sheinkeit Lady "don't tell me how much I spend or whom to give my $$ to." You choose to give to an organization who helped you. I find that really commendable. Others (HC??? ) prefer to give $$ to the manicurist Others, like me, prefer to do both.
A nice young Israeli man came to the door before with a tzetel asking for $$ cos he's getting married. Now I felt so bad for him & I gave quite nicely. Some causes strike me more than others.
It's all down to choice. We all give...BTW, I NEVER walk past the Salvation Army without giving them something...they were very good to my father during his National Service, giving him paper, envelopes & stamps so he could write home. They never tried to convert him, either (the only frum guy in his unit.) Tzedaka is Tzedaka, although Jewish causes always come first.
I hope everyone has what she needs, B'gashmius & B'ruchniyus & we all have enough to help those who need a bit more - even if we think they need to step up to the plate. Because sometimes, they just can't.
Gotta chime in here, Chavs. Big Issue sellers are lazy bums (or work-shy students) who don't want to get a proper job. They are on every corner, sometimes outside every store, & if I hear "Big Issue, luv???" in a broad Yorkshire accent ONE MORE TIME I will break his eyeballs.
And I refuse to buy a Communist rag that I am certain (I have not read it so I am going out on a limb here, but drawing on what I do know) has anti-semitic, anti-Israel, anti-conservative rhetoric.
Back to Tzedaka. As I mumble to myself when I pass the really offensive (not smelly, just obnoxious) Sheinkeit Lady "don't tell me how much I spend or whom to give my $$ to." You choose to give to an organization who helped you. I find that really commendable. Others (HC??? ) prefer to give $$ to the manicurist Others, like me, prefer to do both.
A nice young Israeli man came to the door before with a tzetel asking for $$ cos he's getting married. Now I felt so bad for him & I gave quite nicely. Some causes strike me more than others.
It's all down to choice. We all give...BTW, I NEVER walk past the Salvation Army without giving them something...they were very good to my father during his National Service, giving him paper, envelopes & stamps so he could write home. They never tried to convert him, either (the only frum guy in his unit.) Tzedaka is Tzedaka, although Jewish causes always come first.
I hope everyone has what she needs, B'gashmius & B'ruchniyus & we all have enough to help those who need a bit more - even if we think they need to step up to the plate. Because sometimes, they just can't.
Hey, my manicurist has kids to support too, you know. I bet they even go to camp!
Anyway, my info *may* be out of date, but as of a few years ago, at least, the Salvation Army agreed not to proselytize in their NYC shelters in return for funding and resources from NYC to help them run the shelters. So giving in NYC isn't giving to a Jewish charity, but its not giving to one that proselytizes to Jews, either.
A few answers to things written when it was already shabbos here.
1) Fox everyone kvetches and that's normal and there probably isn't a mother of one child or five children or ten children who hasn't said at one point "I can't cope". But that isn't the issue we are discussing on this thread. The question was whether as a result of a SAHM saying "I can't cope" it is normative and even laudable for her to ask for zedoko to then send her kids to camp. And that's the difference. I never sent my kids to camp and had I wanted to I wouldn't have dreamed of asking for zedoko for something I couldn't afford such as camp.
2) Just for the record as I don't understand whether you were being sarcastic or not. At least here in EY psychology is among one of the hardest departments to get into, particularly for a clinical MA, just the opposite of what you wrote.
3) My son in law - he has an interesting mixture of qualities but being lazy, or demanding in terms of food, clean apartments or anything like that is not one of them. Boruch Hashem for that. He should just get rid of that dog already or at least get her out of their beds so that my daughter has where to sleep eight months pregnant (and with their son wanting to sleep there too!)
4) Mamabear - I understand what you write about errands, dentists etc. But you know, there is a whole world of SAHMs out there with kids home during the summer. Including in the city. How do THEY manage to run errands and go to the dentist? Do you think that they don't? There are many solutions including getting a babysitting for the hours you need to go to a doctor or a dentist if you don't have any neighbors or family who could watch children for those few hours.
5)Some posters seem to be ignoring what some of us are saying. SAHMs, mothers of healthy children, asking for zedoko to send their children to camp, claiming that "every kid needs camp" or "we can't cope". We ARENT discussing those who can afford to send their children but those reaching out to the amorphous "us" to pay for it.
6) For those Lubavitch posters saying that the rebbe said that camp is so important for every child and that's why you have subsidized camps for Lubavitch kids...does that mean camps paid for by American taxpayer allocations or camps that are paid for by zedoko given to Lubavitch? Is that zedoko given by only Lubavitch people, meaning is that an example, as Shalhevet states, of a community supporting itself but distributing allocations between the have's and the have-nots? Or is that, too an example of coming to me for example to pay for the camps of SAHMs in Lubavtich? I don't know. I am asking honestly.
In short, it brings us back to the crux of our discussing. Should "camp" be considered an across the board necessity for all mothers, SAHMs as well, including those who can't afford it? Should it be normative to ask for zedoko money for a healthy SAHMs children to go to camp so that she can run her house and errands during the hours that the children are at camp? Is it normative to have communities with standards of homemaking and housekeeping that REQUIRE SAHMs to devote so many hours to the home and food and have a norm somewhere between Martha Steward and the Feminine Mystique backlash requiring hours of investment daily, making them unable to care for their children full time without "camp"? Is it normative to continue to have child after child that one can't afford to support, counting milechaschila on money from zedoko to give that child what they consider the necessities of life?
And finally Fox, you can get off your American patriotic soapbox, we are long past the 4th of July. If you would be aware of what is going on in the world then you would know that I wasn't talking about America as an economic producer but more of its image in the world in general, which is first and foremost a military question. The minute that America loses its image - justified or not - of a military edge, it affects the entire free world, with Europe then moving closer to terrorists and dictatorships, realizing that America will not be able to protect them when push comes to shove, with Iran and other anti-Israel countries growing stronger by the day knowing that American military options are no longer on the table for whatever reasons, political or ideological or other. America, being a very insular country, will be the last to feel the backlash of it, and you don't feel it yet, but we in the rest of the world, including here in Israel definitely feel what is happened. Think of us, as you will, as the litmus test of what some call "the American edge", which is phrase that you yourself used in your first post about the subject on this thread, hence I used it as well. Because whatever hits us here will eventually hit America as well, just later. By which time, if it hits us really badly, we may not be here in the same form we are now, but let's just hope that Hashem will be good to us and that's won't happen...
In short, it brings us back to the crux of our discussing. Should "camp" be considered an across the board necessity for all mothers, SAHMs as well, including those who can't afford it? Should it be normative to ask for zedoko money for a healthy SAHMs children to go to camp so that she can run her house and errands during the hours that the children are at camp? Is it normative to have communities with standards of homemaking and housekeeping that REQUIRE SAHMs to devote so many hours to the home and food and have a norm somewhere between Martha Steward and the Feminine Mystique backlash requiring hours of investment daily, making them unable to care for their children full time without "camp"? Is it normative to continue to have child after child that one can't afford to support, counting milechaschila on money from zedoko to give that child what they consider the necessities of life?
This. I agree with Mamabear, btw, that many people would be unwilling to live like FS's dd and her husband, with the house a mess and dinner not made every evening. Many dh's would be unhappy to have a stay-at-home-wife who doesn't usually manage to make even a basic dinner by the time they return. The wife is home all day, after all, and she only has one kid at this point, not five.
Most dh's I know would not be that happy with the situation. This has nothing to do with the chassidic community. HOWEVER, I don't know ANYONE who would then decide it's their right to ask for tzeddeka so that the house could be cleaner or dinner made. No.....they would think of other solutions to solve their situation. Maybe pay for a cleaner. Order take-out. Maybe the wife would actually be happier or more productive if she went out to work part-time. Whatever. But I can't think of anyone upon whom it would dawn to ask for tzeddeka to get their kids out of the house so they can do their chores.
Everyone has different norms of home management. It doesn't sound to me like Mamabear is talking about managing a house on the level of Martha Stewart, but rather something more modest. But that's irrelevant. The relevant point is that standards of home management are up to you as an adult. You have to decide what kind of home you want to run, and you have to organize your life in a way that you can manage it. If you are a Martha Stewart type, then you may have to make many other compromises along the way to maintain that (I know women who sacrifice their health to maintain perfect homes, sacrifice quality time with their kids, and yes, limit the amount of kids they have in order to invest their energy cleaning and cooking). If you couldn't care less what the house looks like, then you have more freedom.
The point is that no one has to pay so that you can maintain a certain standard. Even assuming your community has certain domestic standards -- well then, it's your responsibility as an adult to ensure you can meet them, if you want to. Or it's the insular community's responsibility to help you out -- not the responsibility of the broader Jewish community, which does not need to subsidize healthy SAHMs so they have time to cook their husbands dinner.
In my American experience, with NO experience in Williamsburg, the messiest, most filthy houses had the happiest kids in them. I envied the parents' ability to ignore the mess and focus on the children. In all the places I lived in the U.S. (4 States), I can't remember one in which the mother rushed to have anything at all prepared for the father's home-coming. It was taken for granted that a mother at home with children, or a working mother, would generally slap something together for dinner and no one complained. The messiest house I was ever in davka had a lady who like to cook, so she did that. But clean the house? Not until even her kids said something...
Up until the 1950s to 1960s, this was all different. Women were expected to keep the house neat and tidy, with or without the help of a housekeeper. Generally speaking (though both my grandmother's worked outside the home), women weren't such a large part of the work force. Being a SAHM was pretty normal. The housewife (no one called them SAHMs back then) would do the shopping and cooking and even pretty herself up for her husband's inevitable 5pm homecoming. Children had this dastardly obligation called "chores" and helped around the house. Whether there was 1 child, 2 children or more, the kids had to pull their weight around the house. There were less "things" with which to mess up the house. Then again, not everyone had a "Hoover" (vacuum cleaner) or a washing machine that wrung the clothes out. Dishwashers were practically non existent. Air conditioners were not standard in homes. The point being, the housewives had to work harder physically. Jewish housewives had to bring home shechted chickens, pluck and kasher them! They relied on their children to help, then sent them outdoors for fresh air and to get them out from under their feet. Even in the city. There are many pictures of kids riding up and down the sidewalks of Brooklyn. I even have pictures of my mother riding a horse down one of the Avenues! I realize this is no longer possible. Perhaps living in the city should no longer be an option if kids need to be caged into their homes due to safety issues...
With the advent of feminism in the 1960s, all this was supposed to change. Women were supposed to get out and realize themselves; men were supposed to start pitching in. There was a revolution of sorts. The women revolted against not being able to realize a career of their own. They revolted against the menial tasks assigned to them: children, cleaning, food, laundry. Who can blame them? It's a thankless job!
These days, I see one big mess: houses are full of "things", homes are messy and not too clean, both spouses are holding down jobs (or not) and the children are running the show. Women STILL bear the brunt of running the household. Men are gender-confused. There are too many choices out there, when shopping, for most people to think rationally. We are groaning under the burden of "modernity" and "forward thinking". We are constantly connected, constantly scrutinized and damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Under these circumstances, of COURSE a woman can't cope: she's not the housewife anymore. She's the house-slave! She's a slave to all these kids who aren't doing their part. She's a slave to a house full of junk to clear away. She's a slave to a dizzying array of food to shop for and then prepare etc. She's a slave to her cell phone and her computer. If she's working outside the home, she's a slave to her job (unless she's fortunate enough to have a job that gives her lots of leeway). She's a slave to a slew of obligations!
Under this type of duress, what wonder is it that getting rid of the kids is seen as necessity rather than luxury? It's the easiest part of the package to take care of, since "everyone" sends their kids out - there's no shame in it and no guilt feelings of not being able to cope!
My contention is that we brought it upon ourselves, but that's for another thread.
It's not about being old or out of touch with younger generations. It's not about culture: my best
child- raising years were in the United States and only ended 8 years ago - how much could possibly have changed since then? It's about what I wrote about before: common sense. We aren't programmed to handle so much in one lifetime! This isn't about the toughness of any particular breed of woman, regardless of where she lives. Or, perhaps it is: perhaps in countries where life is harder anyway,with less reliance upon conveniences, taking care of your own children is seen as just another job and obligation to contend with....
Which is why some women actively choose to simplify, not to fill their house with so many "things" and to concentrate on what they consider important, making it their priority....but without foisting the other things off on someone else when a third party is paying. Sure, have a cleaning woman if you can't stand a messy house, but if you can't afford it? Don't ask for zedoko for it, change your priorities.
There is , believe it or not, a whole world of women out there these days, young women like my daughter, whose big priority is their kids. Their husbands buy into it and...if there is no food ready, then as Mamabear wrote, if they need more than can be slapped together they go downstairs and buy a pastrami sandwitch. Or in our neighborhood, buy a falafel. Big deal, it's just as healthy as anything else with a bunch of salad dumped in.
Someone's husband needs a hot meal dailiy? Meat and soup? No big deal. Many women have standing freezers. Once a week for shabbos make three times the amount of soup and chicken you need, and freeze portions for each day if you don't like it as "leftovers" from the fridge. Before you go to bed take out a portion of soup and meat/chicken/hock fleish let it defrost overnight, put it in the fridge when you get up and take it out half an hour before your husband gets home, put it in a pot (or the microwave as he enters the house) and voila. Hot meal. It's possible. And takes exactly 30 seconds to put in the pot or microwave. Fully cooked.
In short, there are lots of solutions other than asking for zedoko for camp so that people can get their homemaker acts together.
But just BTW here in EY it wasn't that long ago that we all kashered our own meat and chicken and it was all fresh..I remember it well as a married woman already and until ten years ago I still kashered my own meat and have the board in my kitchen upstairs in the cabinet until today. I did however miss out on the plucking chickens, although I have friends who raise them, take them to the local teimani shochet and still clean and pluck them themselves.
and BTW just for the record my daughter is not a SAHM but a full time working mother who comes home at 3-4 PM, takes her son from gan, but he is usually up until long past 10 PM. All those hours, the 7 hours she has with him until he goes to sleep, are devoted to her son. When her husband comes home, they both devote to their son or take him with them when they go out to do something. If it is a night that my son in law doesn't come home (every second night), my daughter takes her son, and sometimes her neices and nephew who she often cares for, to the market to shop, on errands and anywhere she needs to. It's just considered a normal part of everyday life. And he is one heck of a leibidig kid. Oh yeah, she also takes their hyperactive dog with them too, anywhere they go. Including a supermarket which is a sight to see!
In short, there are lots of solutions other than asking for zedoko for camp so that people can get their homemaker acts together.
Yes. This.
freidasima wrote:
and BTW just for the record my daughter is not a SAHM but a full time working mother who comes home at 3-4 PM, takes her son from gan, but he is usually up until long past 10 PM. All those hours, the 7 hours she has with him until he goes to sleep, are devoted to her son.
That makes a huge difference. A woman who gets home at 3 pm is not the same as a SAHM. FTR, I don't necessarily think SAHMs need to have dinner ready by the time dh gets home; but certainly a woman who works is probably far too harried for that. And usually kids are full of demands and desperate for attention when they first get home after daycare - certainly no help for getting dinner made. (Maybe FS's dd could get tzeddeka so she could quit her job, become a SAHM, and then ask for more tzeddeka so her son could continue daycare throughout the summer months, so Dinner could be served on Time?)
Also, I agree that dinner doesn't have to be a big deal. It's not necessarily healthier if you spend more time on it. And if a dh does like all the patchke - freeze ahead of time. Not a reason to ask for donations.
freidasima wrote:
Oh yeah, she also takes their hyperactive dog with them too, anywhere they go. Including a supermarket which is a sight to see!
Since when are any dogs (besides guide dogs) allowed in any Israeli supermarket????
Where the dog promtly begins to cry because she doesnt like being left alone. And then she begins to dance on her hind legs and beg kisses from passerbyers (she is a hunting dog but LOVES people which was not her job, she would probably scare a gonif out of his mind blowing kisses all over him and on her hind legs she is two meters tall...
As I wrote, it is a sight to see.
However my daughter was a SAHM for the first six months after her son was born and it was exactly the same. The house was trashed, meals weren't made but she sure nursed non stop, played with him non stop, talked and sang to him, played opera for him, did mommy-baby exercises with him, and that was when her husband was an intern and he was never ever ever home. She used to take the baby to the hospital as soon as he was three months old to sit and wait for "daddy" to see his son and they would get a falafel together and eat it there in emergency so that he could see his son while he (the husband) was awake because when he would get home he would be too tired to play with him, this way they chapped in ten minutes of awake time in between emergencies.
So it's in the priorities.
I once asked her what she would do if he were a neatness freak and her comment was that she wouldn't have married him in the first place. So if the price is that she has to have nails with polish (not long, just nice manicure) and stay slim and dress well and be in really good shape, she believes it is worth it for the trade off.
It's all in the priorities. Maybe hers aren't mine but OTOH my house never looked like hers even when I came back from surgery in the hospital...the first thing I did was to go to the sink and wash all the dishes! She in my place? Wouldn't even notice them! She would probably just go and hug the kids and be with them nonstop. Maybe she is right.
the messiest, most filthy houses had the happiest kids in them.
YAY lol
Quote:
But clean the house? Not until even her kids said something...
LOL! how did it look?
Quote:
Under these circumstances, of COURSE a woman can't cope: she's not the housewife anymore. She's the house-slave!
perhaps in countries where life is harder anyway,with less reliance upon conveniences, taking care of your own children is seen as just another job and obligation to contend with....
Ditto to both.
I do think that a mom who is home at 3 or 4 should be able to prepare something... many moms here are home at 7, 8 or later. I hardly know any working woman who can pick up the kids from school (4 to 5) unless they work part time or are a teacher.
I also think a mom who has so many hours with her child should have lots of personal time, in order to not be too tired for couple time when the dad comes back. And even if she has the koyech, if he goes to bed so late it is highly improbably they have enough time (unless he keeps occupied by himself or they go to bed ultra late). My dh doesn't care if the house is a mess or if there is no food ready and always did more than his share even when he worked FT, but this he wouldn't let (yes I asked him to be sure lol)... But that's another topic.
Bubby, The Big Issue has helped many ppl get of the streets and unto better lifes. They are NOT lazy if they were they wouldnt be standing in the cold doing working a decent job. Its a really great way to help ppl in a dignified manner. Please dont put down an organisation that has done and is doing great work. I am not sure where you have gotten your stories from that they are lazy bums but if you'd looked into it you'd read about the many ppl they'd helped. I have looked into it and have read testimonies from some of the ppl and I have tremendous respect for the ppl who worked themselves out of the street and got better jobs or educations as well as for the magazine itself.
I have btw read it and it has never said anything antisemitic you might be confusing it with bbc which is antisemitic.
Anyways this is pretty of topic.
I am not sure what HC nor whom the Sheinkeit Lady is. I do know that although I'd love to keep a manicurist in bussiness my dh doesnt like manicures (on me or him for that matter) and I'd prefer to use the money for milk so no manicures in this house sadly and I dont only give to the ones that helped me but to a variety.
6) For those Lubavitch posters saying that the rebbe said that camp is so important for every child and that's why you have subsidized camps for Lubavitch kids...does that mean camps paid for by American taxpayer allocations or camps that are paid for by zedoko given to Lubavitch? Is that zedoko given by only Lubavitch people, meaning is that an example, as Shalhevet states, of a community supporting itself but distributing allocations between the have's and the have-nots? Or is that, too an example of coming to me for example to pay for the camps of SAHMs in Lubavtich? I don't know. I am asking honestly.
I am not sure if you have heard of Chabad, but that is Lubavitch. Almost every chabad house has a day camp. They are often for jewish kids that don't go to a jewish school but they still often have frum kids in them too. I am not sure how much they charge but commonly chabad houses will admit children for low costs or no cost if they feel the kids can use a summer in a jewish camp. I was a counslers for many summers in a few chabad camps and they paid peanuts. BH I was living at home and I did it because it was helping the chabad house help children with a fun and jewish summer. BH there are alot of jews in the world that have been helped by chabad and want to give back. They donate to alot of Lubavitch organizations, and this can include their educational institutions. So no not all donations are from Lubavtichers. I know that on my sons (age 7 and 8 ) camp registration forms its say something in the effect that no boy will be turned away for financial reasons but please pay as much as you can.
Last edited by Pickle Lady on Sun, Jul 17 2011, 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Chavs, HC=Hot chanies & the Sheinkeit Lady is one of our local & more repulsive beggars...she's repulsive because she insults everyone if they don't give her enough (not just if they don't give) & Kingston Ave on a Friday had at least a dozen people holding out their tin cups.
As for Big issue...IMO they are bums. GET A JOB!!!!! End of story (I did say I haven't read it but my mother has.) Hey, if you want to give your hard earned money to them, again...your cash, your choice. I'm just surprised, that's all. I didn't think anyone supported them!
Chavs, HC=Hot chanies & the Sheinkeit Lady is one of our local & more repulsive beggars...she's repulsive because she insults everyone if they don't give her enough (not just if they don't give) & Kingston Ave on a Friday had at least a dozen people holding out their tin cups.
As for Big issue...IMO they are bums. GET A JOB!!!!! End of story (I did say I haven't read it but my mother has.) Hey, if you want to give your hard earned money to them, again...your cash, your choice. I'm just surprised, that's all. I didn't think anyone supported them!
The last time dh and I were in CH for a l'chaim we had a lady tell us how good looking we are and ask us for money. We didn't give her any.
) prefer to give $$ to the manicurist 
Others, like me, prefer to do both.
Tamiri!
