I am pretty sure that saying she is whining wont help her in any way shape or form unless by helping you mean push her towards feeling like a complete failure. Sympathy will go a long way. Having someone who listened to you even if they werent able to solve your problems can actually help ppl cope, read men are from mars women are from venus to get an idea. Sometimes it will help some one to have a listening ear.
I guess, if you are from the "tsk tsk" school of thought. But looking around at all the many young people, particularly in the Jewish community, who are just not coping, one might think that "tsk tsk" and sweeping the problems aside aren't having the desired affect. Perhaps it's time to not only renew the application of "common sense" but to begin it in childhood. We're talking about financial management, parenting, getting an education, having grown men stop behaving like teenagers etc.
I think the difference is there are those of us who are looking at the issue globally, and those of us who are looking at the issue individualistically. ie, I see certain women, whether SAHM, or WAHM, or WOTH mothers as being unique people, some of whom might require, because of their lives, tzeddakah to pay for their kids to go to camp.
I'm really surprised you can say this on page whatever-we're-on-already. Maybe on page 3. But since then every single person has agreed, multiple times, that when it comes to the individual level some people do require tzedaka for camp due to unique circumstances.
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Some women are weak. That's a fact. They can't cope. Just like some people have weak hearts. This is life. But yes, something is wrong with the system (cont)
Then the question is also what a person who knows she can't cope should do. Should the priority be coping without help, having as many children as possible, something in between, etc.
I agree with the rest of what you said.
Then why do people keep arguing. FWIW. I don't think any of us have said that all women who want to have their children subsidized for camp should be subsidized.
As far as your question; it depends. I guess that's my mantra. There is no SPECIFIC answer. In some cases it is "די" enough kids already! Birth control is muttar. Better a healthy mom who is secure and satisfied with life than one who is always on edge. In some cases the husband has to be told; guess what? Days of wife does it all are kaput. Get in there and wash dishes, floors, take out the trash, shop, clean the toilet. In other cases maybe it is "sorry dh but you need to work or get a second job." In some cases it is "mom, you'd do better OUT of the house. Have sitter will smile."
LOTS of different choices, but really it isn't a klal. It isn't telling women they must get tough, they must or should do this or that. It is, what is the case.
I think people are mostly arguing different things at this point. It's hard to come to a conclusion when talking about different things. Like arguing "not all rectangles are squares" vs. "penguins are awesome" - two true statements that could keep being repeated over and over if the former group thinks praise of penguins is a declaration that all rectangles are squares, and the latter thinks that talk of rectangles is meant as a snub to penguins.
I think we are in agreement.
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FWIW. I don't think any of us have said that all women who want to have their children subsidized for camp should be subsidized.
A few people (and I thought you were one of them?) were saying that people shouldn't question someone's request for tzedaka, they should just give or not give, but let the person making the request decide for themselves if the request is reasonable.
Which could be taken as support for the idea that if anyone wants camp subsidized we should assume they must really need it - and if they do, it's just as legitimate as any other cause...[/quote]
I assume nothing. I do however think it is as legit as any other cause. Chavs uses agencies that she trusts. I would too for anything over a few shekels.
But HR that's exactly what we are discussing here. If someone says (we call that "self reporting") that she needs zedoko to send her kids to camp, do we just accept it at face value? A lot of people say a lot of things for reasons that when one looks at it objectively, are to others totally ridiculous.
Just look at the superwoman-balabusta argument that has been mentioned here. There are communities, mostly chassidish, in which standards for women are what others would consider incredibly high and even crazy. To always have the house clean, a hot meal ready, to be totally composed and children clean and ready every night when your husband comes home? To have five course meals as a regular thing and even if only on a shabbos? To be the perfect housewife, as someone so rightly said, which would mean that children come second and third and fourth after cooking, cleaning, and dh's needs, even if it is a total negation of what many of us think that SAHM means?
So when someone from that community comes to me or to anyone and says "I need money for camp" I can't take it at face value. Because it means basically supporting a lifestyle that I disagree with. Chassidus as we know it with divisions of courts has existed for almost 250 years but this superwoman balabusta business is a new american invention of the past forty years maybe. So it's not exactly supporting the longtime traditional and central tenets of chassidus is it for anyone to give zedoko to pay for summer camp for super-balabustas who can't cope with the demands of super-balabustahood while also being mothers to normal children. I emphasize normal and not children with maladies, special needs etc.
Also the premises behind this camp thread go much deeper in Jewish society than just the question of camp. It's a question of priorities in the Jewish world, of priorities in lifestyle in various communities and in the sense of need and entitlement of various groups. Also the question of whether there should be shame to some degree involved in accepting charity as a norm that someone takes on milechaschila, as opposed to individuals who plan and try their utmost but find themselves suddenly in situations where they can't make it on their own bedieved.
That's what this thread is all about. Different cultural norms as Mamabear wrote, but also the question of what is behind those norms. Is it the rabbonish leadership which created or supports these norms? Is it the women? Who is behind it? Are the women happy with such norms? Are they only happy if they are receiving financial support from without to enable a continuation of these norms? etc. etc. And what is the result of it. All important questions for the Jewish world to address.
And that's what is behind some of the discussion of the camp for all thread and why it's still going on. Because there is still a lot to discuss on these topics.
Could be. I definitely think there needs to be more safe areas that a child can access easily from a very young age (3+) that doesn't require mom to tag along or be there. It use to be streets, parking lots, backyards, etc. Read the Dollmaker btw on the difference between a shack in the woods and a "modern" house in the city. Interesting read.
/quote]
Not to be nitpicky but I disagree. (Maybe I need to read the book to understand.) Moshiach's not here yet.
2) Holocaust mentality. Everyone is the product of where they come from. I'm a member of the second generation. I was brought up by Holocaust survivors and the country in which I live is very influenced in its culture by knowing what happened during the Holocaust and internalizing it in terms of various values of general society, whether we are talking of Europeans or Jews from other lands. But it doesn't have to be "Holocaust" and "Nazis". It can be any type of serious hardship. Those of you who are rolling your eyes, maybe just stop reading now because you live in a different world and can't imagine what I am writing and I daven for you that you will never know from it. But those of us here, and in other places in the world who have seen hardship of different kinds caused by war and its aftermath, have also seen that the tough or at least those knowing how to live "tough" when necessary, actually get through such situations much better than those who dont.
As I wrote in a previous post, that's why the army pushes soldiers to their limits, making them walk tremendous distances with heavy packs on their back. Living off field rations. Sleeping in tents or in the open. To show them that if it happens they can and will survive it. The bullet may kill them but there is little to do about that. The harsh conditions won't. That's physical.
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Re first paragraph: I guess I'm third generation weak American. My grandfather was incredibly moser nefesh for Shabbos and grew up hungry. Somehow he managed not just to pass on his passion for Shabbos but a wonderful positive attitude. He was also determined that none of his descendants go hungry and (we lived in his house) made sure we were amply fed. He didn't want to see us suffer the same way he did. Kind of natural for parents.
As to the second point I snipped: classic mussar example. Soldiers can't learn by simulation, they have to be in the rough and tumble so that when they're presented with the real deal, they will act instinctively, it'll have been imprinted already. So Hashem has us strengthen our muscles too. Nothing to disagree with there.
How to reconcile my two points? No time right now. Have a great Shabbos!
Thanks Pink. I didn't mean that someone who has should go hungry, cholilo. Davka the opposite, chazal teach us that the rich should eat off gold plates so that when they give zedoko if they are eating off wooden planks they will say the poor can eat off the palm of their hands and don't even need a plank, that way at least they will understand that the poor need something that may not be gold but also isn't the palm of their hand.
However it does mean that you learn skills to cope with various situations. I don't know how well some of the super balabustas know how to cope if they are suddenly in a situation where they can't live as they are used to. Do they realize that you can make a shabbos, a normal one, out of chicken wings and a challah kugel with a soup from turkey necks? Do they know how to buy half soft or even half rotten fruit for pennies and make them into fruit soups, compotes cutting away the brown and black? Do they know that you don't need custom sheitls to get married, or kallah jewelry or tennis bracelets when their children are born? And do they know that in the rest of the world a SAHM is read backwards. First MOM and then Home?
But yes growing up on stories of parents who survived on knowing that onions become sweet when roasted so that when they found rotten onions could throw them into the fire and have what to eat taught me something. Even though I wasn't raised on rotten onions as a kid. I think that it gave me a very different sense of proportion in life. And like Ruchel my father never wanted me to feel any suffering but he certainly taught me how to survive if I find myself in situations where I won't have basic creature comforts, and minimal food, shelter and water. He also taught me to learn all my davening by heart because when you run you don't always have a siddur. Even yomim noraim davening I know by heart. Also megillas. Just for that reason.
He also taught me that people are often a lot stronger than they think and that like a muscle, that strength has to be exercised occasionally otherwise it will atrophy. It doesn't mean living like paupers or under terrible conditions. But it means knowing how to cope in many many different types of situations. And not only cope. Survive and even prosper.
I assume nothing. I do however think it is as legit as any other cause. Chavs uses agencies that she trusts. I would too for anything over a few shekels.
Fair enough.
I think the other big difference people are having over the tzedaka issue, btw, is simply the angle from which they're approaching it. As I said earlier there's a seeming disconnect sometimes in how chazal/rabbis talked about giving tzedaka vs. getting tzedaka. I think sometimes people were talking about the latter, ie speaking as potential recipients, and it was taken as if they were speaking about the former, ie potential givers.
Well Ruchel that means that you can't prepare for anything or learn anything for the future and we all know that's not true.
You can learn a lot about yourself from an exercise. You can learn a lot - period - from an exercise.
Try it once Ruchel and see what happens.
Learn survival skills and go out camping with nothing and see how long you can cope...of course having a cellphone or busfare in your pocket so that you can get out when you can't cope any more.
Or try once giving yourself a budget of next to nothing and going to the market and trying to make a meal out of it.
Or sleeping on the floor without a blanket or pillow for a night.
That's what we all did as kids. Just to see what our parents had lived through. And to see that we could. And we all survived and it taught us a very important lesson that has stayed with me and most of my friends for the past forty years since we were kids. Some of us still do it occasionally just to remember that we can do it. Just in case. You may be second generation but you were born a really loooooong time after the war. The majority of us were born within a pretty short time after and the messages were maybe different than by the time you were born. We had parents who weren't children during the war but adults, some even older adults. Maybe that is the difference between our experiences as 2gs.
Sometimes it's good to test your limits when you dont HAVE to just to know what to do in case cholilo you might have to one day. You are young. Im yirtze Hashem you have a long life ahead of you. No one promised you that it will always be good. Be prepared just in case. Because in Jewish history, the "just in case" has happened over and over and over unfortunately.
Do you like ferrets and hedgehogs? If so we are on a roll!
At one time basically tzeddakah was for food and maybe shelter...maybe health care, not really much more.
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I assume nothing. I do however think it is as legit as any other cause. Chavs uses agencies that she trusts. I would too for anything over a few shekels.
Fair enough.
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I think the other big difference people are having over the tzedaka issue, btw, is simply the angle from which they're approaching it. As I said earlier there's a seeming disconnect sometimes in how chazal/rabbis talked about giving tzedaka vs. getting tzedaka. I think sometimes people were talking about the latter, ie speaking as potential recipients, and it was taken as if they were speaking about the former, ie potential givers.
I think people are mostly arguing different things at this point. It's hard to come to a conclusion when talking about different things. Like arguing "not all rectangles are squares" vs. "penguins are awesome" - two true statements that could keep being repeated over and over if the former group thinks praise of penguins is a declaration that all rectangles are squares, and the latter thinks that talk of rectangles is meant as a snub to penguins.
I think we are in agreement.
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FWIW. I don't think any of us have said that all women who want to have their children subsidized for camp should be subsidized.
A few people (and I thought you were one of them?) were saying that people shouldn't question someone's request for tzedaka, they should just give or not give, but let the person making the request decide for themselves if the request is reasonable.
Which could be taken as support for the idea that if anyone wants camp subsidized we should assume they must really need it - and if they do, it's just as legitimate as any other cause...
I assume nothing. I do however think it is as legit as any other cause. Chavs uses agencies that she trusts. I would too for anything over a few shekels.[/quote]
Actually, the *all women who want their kids to go to camp should be subsidized* argument has been made repeatedly, and is the origin of this thread. Camp is a necessity. No SAHM can handle kids during the summer. She who would not give charity for these purposes (and that would be me) lacks ahavat Yisrael. I'm old and don't understand the way parenting is today, making camp a necessity, and should get my nose out of the air and stop being a bee-yotch (I added the last word, but the rest is from this thread).
The majority of SAHMs cope, and cope ery wlel. if therye a little stressd they manage.
Its likely that many of the non copers come here, as an escape from the overwhlemingness of it all. so there are 1000s of copers out there, who dont have the time or interest to sit here and blab. they re busy enjoying their SAHM status!!!
Frieda I never implied a house should be spotless and a five course hot meal ready at 6 pm. I said, it shouldnt look like a warzone, and there's no food for anyone. Which happens in my house if both kids are home all day, on any day of the week. So if someone has 5,6,7 small kids home every day, at some point this is going to start happening and the shalom bayis and mental health of the mother will start to crumble. I didnt say five course meals. or spotless 24/7.
No, you mentioned a "warzone" and no one talked about a "warzone" certainly not me. My definition however of a warzone is what my friend's house looked like after being shelled in the war. Broken walls. Cracked windows. Glass all over. Total mess, dust and debris.
I don't think that a messy house is a "warzone", that's a big exaggeration. I have seen my daughter's house when she has her son up and his three first cousins, all small, playing all day. The living room is wall to wall toys, every spoon and ladle is out because they play with them and they are scattered all over. The dishes are still in the sink until nighttime. The floor is sticky where the kids dropped food (living and dining room all together). There are piles of laundry on the sofa taken off the line and not yet folded or sorted, the garbage pail is overflowing because my daughter didn't want to walk down three flights pregnant and will wait until her husband gets home, and there is no food waiting for him to eat.
Then her husband walks in. He gives her a kiss, throws his son into the air, mindless of the mess, gives big hugs to his nieces and nephew, goes to wash his hands and starts on the dishes while my daughter is playing with the kids and trying to feed the two youngest. For dinner they often cut up break, make a salad and fry eggs. Or boil water, make pasta and throw in tomato sauce and cheese. My son in law, trophy wife and all that, is not averse to cooking or washing up - his "trophy" involves his wife looking great. If her nails aren't done he will get unhappy, but he will also watch the kids while she sits in the evening and does her nails for him.
Now add to that the fact that he is a surgical resident and walked in after working for 30 hours straight and if he was lucky he dozed for an hour or two if it was quiet during the night. And that's what he walks into. And he finds it normal because that's what it means to have a passel of kids around. A mess. No food ready. Dishes in the sink, and mommy watching the kids and playing with them.
So? He adores his son. He will adore the next one (let's hope it's a girl another boy like that and there won't be a single thing left standing in the house), he adores his neices and nephew....and let's not forget the dog who actually sleeps with them in bed (this is a massive dog, put a yarmulkeh on her and a pair of pants, have her stand up on her hind legs and you would think it's a past bar mitzva boy with a thin face and scraggly whiskers and add him to a minyan!)...who has to be taken care of.
Yeah that's normal life for many people.
And dont tell me that in your community the norm isn't having very lavish meals with many courses, at least on shabbos? That's all I read about on the threads here!
1) Fox, hate to say it but as someone knowing and seeing first hand what has happened to America's standing abroad, America and the American way of life HAS lost its edge. Unfortunately.
"Knowing and seeing first hand" -- I thought you were a therapist, not an economist, anthropologist, sociologist, or similar social scientist. Just the expression "America's edge" tells me way more than I need to know about your qualifications to make this judgment. No one who seriously educates him/herself about these issues believes that "America's edge" is some ethereal presence that descends to cloak us in prosperity and goodness when we display the right middos. Whatever "edge" the U.S. might have is the result of limited government involvement, immigration policy, etc. And this "edge" you refer to is not something unique to the U.S. You want to talk about "edges" -- look at Hong Kong!
Let me guess: you read a lot of periodicals and newspapers, some of them more incisive than others. You watch reports on TV about what's going on in the U.S. You chat with other people of your approximate age who grew up in the U.S. You read the Pew Opinion Polls each year about what people think of the U.S.
You don't know or see anything firsthand, nor do I. In fact, the only one here on imamother who has any right to claim that is Saw60sts!
freidasima wrote:
I have nothing against America, I was born there and grew up there. But I also know that because of its size Americans tend to be rather insular and not to realize what is happened to America's values and image abroad. And yes, it counts because one of the reasons it is happening is because of what has gone on in America for the past few years. Bad economics, bad leadership when it comes to foreign affairs, and a type of cockiness that might work when one thinks one is "the best" (just see how many americans act when abroad) but no longer has anything to back it up with. Not financially, not democratically, and not in terms of values, morals or leadership. Again, unfortunately.
That having been said, many countries look at Americans as being very spoiled in many things, at least today, and I'm not talking about third world countries or the African bush where people still draw water from the stream etc. It's like American or at least some of them, are living in a virtual world and one day it will come crashing down on their heads and they won't have any coping skills for "real life". That's what I am expressing here in miniature. To understand see "toughness and coping" below.
Oh, right! The "insular American" argument. Sorry, but that gets no respect from me. Americans are no more insular than anyone else. People around the world think they "know" about the U.S. because they watch a ton of American-made entertainment. But they have little more understanding about the "real" U.S. than I have about life in Turkmenistan.
Ah, the "ugly American" stereotype. Yes, I'm sure some Americans behave dismally abroad. Unfortunately, no one made me in charge of teaching manners to Americans. However, anyone who has been to Florida in the winter lately is quite aware that Americans do not own a monopoly on behaving badly when they leave home. I'll also mention the well-know saying in the upper echelons of the hospitality industry: "Germany must be where the Israelis learned their manners."
Let me bottom-line you here: The only time I hear that the U.S. is "the greatest" is when politicians are trying to whip everyone into a furor. However, I all the time that the U.S. "thinks" it's "the greatest." Most people here in the U.S. are too busy doing all the things you think we should do -- being self-supporting, etc., to stand around and beat our chests. So don't embarrass yourself with these worn-out cliches. They represent an outdated and simplistic mindset.
freidasima wrote:
2) Holocaust mentality. Everyone is the product of where they come from. I'm a member of the second generation. I was brought up by Holocaust survivors and the country in which I live is very influenced in its culture by knowing what happened during the Holocaust and internalizing it in terms of various values of general society, whether we are talking of Europeans or Jews from other lands. But it doesn't have to be "Holocaust" and "Nazis". It can be any type of serious hardship. Those of you who are rolling your eyes, maybe just stop reading now because you live in a different world and can't imagine what I am writing and I daven for you that you will never know from it. But those of us here, and in other places in the world who have seen hardship of different kinds caused by war and its aftermath, have also seen that the tough or at least those knowing how to live "tough" when necessary, actually get through such situations much better than those who dont.
As I wrote in a previous post, that's why the army pushes soldiers to their limits, making them walk tremendous distances with heavy packs on their back. Living off field rations. Sleeping in tents or in the open. To show them that if it happens they can and will survive it. The bullet may kill them but there is little to do about that. The harsh conditions won't. That's physical. Here we are talking mental and situational. I, along with a large part of the world, think that being tough is something very positive. And understand, "tough" doesn't mean being MEAN, it doesn't mean having leathery skin, it doesn't mean "taking food out of garbage pails" as someone here wrote. It means not being spoiled or if you can afford to be spoiled at least knowing how to live if something happens and you can't afford it. It means being a responsible human being and paying the price for your choices and not expecting someone else or some institution or organization to bail you out. It means having survival skills and knowing how to use them if necessary. It means teaching your children those same skills, again, not meaning that they shoudln't enjoy life, but that they should know how to survive and cope (think - toughness means coping) if they don't have the financial resources or situational resources to live as they would like to.
Your arrogance is overwhelming. I gather you characterize yourself as "tough." Well, that's great -- that's like me characterizing myself as a Size 2. But did you ever think that things you consider to be "normal" are evidence of being "spoiled" to other people? Did you ever consider that there are people who might tell you how soft and untested you are? Oh, wait! As an "insular American," I'm unable to grasp the idea that there are people in the world with values different from mine!
freidasima wrote:
You don't see being "tough" as something positive? How easy to just associate it with the "hated Israeli mentality" that some of you have come out against. Well I guess you also hate the Bulgarian mentality, the Greek mentality, the Austrian mentality, the Russian mentality, the Chinese mentality, etc.
Some of you see the kind of toughness and coping I suggest as being "psychotic" as one poster wrote? Fine. I pray for you that you won't need to "cope" like that ever and that for those who can't afford help, there will always be charity and alms to pay for your needs.
I'm not against "toughness," but I have a very different definition of the type of "toughness" I aim for in life: I have no interest in the kind of external toughness that is demonstrated by being unkind (renamed "blunt"), pushy, or in-your-face. That kind of toughness is cheap and meaningless. Real toughness is the ability to be positive in horrible situations; the ability to adapt your thinking; the ability to learn new ways of doing things; the ability to let go of your stereotypes and prejudices for a greater goal.
Israelis have to be tough -- and act tough -- because they're at war. And that's why I don't condemn their "tough" behavior and attitudes. I don't yell back when Israeli clients yell at me. I try not to get agitated when faced with Israelis who are sure I'm trying to take advantage of them. I make an effort to remember that unlike me, the insulated American, their experiences in life have required them to adopt this stance.
Being "tough" has nothing to do with relying on charity to pay for my needs. Hashem provides, and I try to be happy with what He has provided. Lions don't need to roar, and truly tough people don't need to brandish their toughness in others' faces.
freidasima wrote:
3) Generational - I'm getting a bit sick of being bashed for my age here. So for those of you who think that what I am writing only represents the mentality of an old lady, I showed my posts to my daughter this morning who is home for the day. She is in her late 20s. And her comment was: "Mom, that's exactly what I would have written, word for word."
Well, we're approximately the same age -- definitely the same generation. But I see my role as somewhat different. Rather than insulting younger women for their alleged weaknesses or even for their immaturity, I have an opportunity on imamother to advise, persuade, and introduce different ways of thinking. The Torah tells us that gentle words have more impact. So I try my darnedest to set aside my personal hot buttons and experiences and give advice or perspectives that will help in the long run. I don't claim that I necessarily succeed, but that's my goal.
Don't want to be bashed for being an "old lady"? There's an easy way around that: don't bash other people for being young or immature. You were immature once, too. So was I. There's a great line in one of Alexander McCall Smith's Number One Ladies Detective Agency books. I'll have to paraphrase, since I no longer have the book:
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"We should not judge young people so harshly, because we were once young. When we judge them, we are really condemning the people we once were, and this is wrong, because being young and inexperienced is the natural order of things. Those young people we were grew older and gained wisdom and experience, and that is what will happen to the young people we see around us."
And dont tell me that in your community the norm isn't having very lavish meals with many courses, at least on shabbos? That's all I read about on the threads here!
Okay, I'll bite: why is maintaining a manicure more morally defensible than serving lavish meals on Shabbos?
C'mon! If Shayna Maidel from Flatbush posted on imamother, kvetching about the difficulty of maintaining her manicure, she'd be eaten alive before lunchtime!
First my daughter never kvetches about her manicure. She just does her nails and that's that.
Second, hate to tell you but I do go back and forth to America and lots of other countries for my work. Just because I'm on imamother doesn't mean that I'm not loggin in from Berlin, Madrid, New York, Boston, Philadellphia or San Diego.
Third when I talk about toughness you seem to equate that with rudeness and pushiness. That's not at all what I am talking about, that's your peirush Rashi. I mean the ability to get on with real life and be responsible for your choices and pay the price for them. That's not what I see regarding a lot of posters on this thread.
Last, if you ask most americans if they think they are the greatest country in the world and the american "way of life" is the best in the world, they will undoubtedly say "yes of course". This has been proven over and over in surveys and before you knock surveys, it gets you to many more answers than just checking with your friends and neighbors. Then go and ask whether anyone outside of america thinks that america's position has eroded tremendously in the past few years and you will get an across the board "yes".
Why do you feel this need to defend american superiority? That's not what's being discussed in this thread at all. I'm sure there are spoiled young women in other western countries as well. However one would expect that the really frum communities would have a bit of a different set of values and reality than those one finds from some posters here.
And just BTW, my oldest daughter's husband would be by no means classified as ultra orthodox and not even plain ordinary DL but much more DL lite or even very lite, which would explain her husband's trophy wife mentality. It's rare to find such a thing among regular DLs to that degree. My daughter fell in love with him and is willing to buy into it. But she doesn't kvetch about doing her nails nor does she take any money from anyone, including us, to keep up her "habit" of nail polish (or childcare or day camp or food or anything else, they do it on their own. We just put away money for our grandchildren for the future).
