Fox then where do you place the american charedi organizations which are schnorring among the MO and DL's here to provide various things for members of the various charedi kehilos...including camp? And what about the poster here who told of being asked to contact a wealthy friend to pay for camp for another acquaintance of hers who couldn't afford to send?
I place them precisely where I said: they want more money. Well, duh! Me, too! However, they have non-profit status and are able to send about mailings. I personally don't get so many mailings -- maybe they've pegged me as not MO or DL. But I do get plenty of mailings for causes that I personally don't feel are a priority or that I feel don't really need the money. Heck, I get plenty of mailings from my alma mater. Guess what? They would like me to believe that I should pay for new facilities and raises for all the profs. Frankly, I think camp would be a better use of my limited funds!
freidasima wrote:
Fox also remember that what you think of as Israeli toughness is no different really than what America was like 50 years ago. We consider it normal here and not because of a state of war but rather because that is what people need in order to survive life anywhere. Which is the same as the Americans thought fifty years ago...since then Americans have gotten soft. But there are lots of other countries which haven't and Israel is far from being the hardest...and the people in those countries are rapidly surpassing americans in skills, education, and becoming economically powerful....so, maybe the softness that the Americans have adopted over the past few decades isn't really the best thing for them or for their country long term and I'm not even talking Jewish, not to speak of not talking frum here.
Wow! I'm 51, and my childhood was spent with women who wore white gloves when they left the house. Granted, the loosey-gooseyness of the 60s made some impact, but it took most of the country about a decade to hop on the counter-culture bandwagon. The kind of "toughness" you illustrated would have been considered pathological, not normal, by anyone I knew.
As for the "softness" -- who died and left you in charge of determining what qualities are needed for a society to "succeed"? Where are you getting this image of the U.S. as going to rack and ruin -- or at least, more than usual? My guess is that you're succumbing to the anti-U.S. rhetoric that characterizes a lot of mass publications -- including those here in the U.S. There's plenty of "Oh, woe is us! We're losing our edge!" There's usually precious little real analysis, though. If you spend time reading about the technology-based business world, for example, you'll get a different picture.
You've frequently shown a distinct anti-U.S. bias in the past, and I've been too cowed to call you on it. I guess I'm just feeling brave today. I have no illusions about galus, and I'm quite sure that Americans would line up as quickly as Germans to rid the country of Jews. That said, I don't feel the need to look for every negative element in American history or life. Being cynical about the U.S. may be popular in EY and elsewhere, but we're kind of over it here. To be fair, you won't find me bashing Israel or anywhere else, either. People who are secure about themselves and their community -- or at least want to seem secure -- don't need to relentlessly point out the foibles of other places.
freidasima wrote:
I also think we also have a clash here not only between Israelis and Americans but between different types of Frum. Different standards. Different lifestyles. When I look at my DL friends and neighbors I don't see anyone who can't "afford" camp if they wanted to send. But they aren't willing in some cases to use that money for something that they can well live with - their children being home for a few weeks during the summer and yes, eight or ten weeks is "a few weeks" for some.
And how is this different from an American or Briton saying, "They want how much?" and making some other arrangement, but then kvetching about the high cost?
freidasima wrote:
As for gedolim saying that "camp is a necessity" well in the MO world I never heard anyone say that. Ever. For any reason. I have however seen educators push camp tremendously...mostly because they are involved in running and making tremendous profits in summer camps.
It's a different world.
So why insult women who belong to groups where their leaders have said that? Telling women how weak they are is basically just a way of redistributing the blame. It doesn't do the women any good, and it doesn't promote an intellectual conversation about whether circumstances that existed in the past are still present.
freidasima wrote:
And as for Jewish princesses. they ultimately become a burden on society when they insist on various things which their husbands can't afford and end up turning to zedoko societies for them.
See, you say this as if saying it makes it true, but I just don't see it. Yes, I see a ton of gemachs for bridal frippery. But I don't see tons of chesed organizations springing up to support designer handbags, etc. And the handful of people I know who are truly not self-supporting certainly don't live like that. I have no doubt that the occasional down-on-her-luck princess gets some tzeddakah for questionable purposes, but it's hardly common.
I would have waited till the city services do it. It's their job. If they're late, I have a good excuse to not go to work.
It's not their job in America. They clear the streets, which actually pushes more snow into the driveways. Then you clean your own driveway and walkway. Unless you have kids, then they can do it.
Excuse not to go to work? Only if you want the economy to shut down for the winter.
I think maybe America is more rural? Could explain the difference.
I would have waited till the city services do it. It's their job. If they're late, I have a good excuse to not go to work.
Shoveling when pregnant? People would have called me crazy, and it wouldn't have gone through my mind. Yeah, another world...
Life is hard enough without adding to what needs to be done. I don't think I have ever seen a woman doing that. Not that many men, but certainly some.
In the US, cities plow public streets. It is the homeowner's responsibility to clear their private driveways and their sidewalks. Many municipalities require homeowners to clear sidewalks within 24 hours after the snow stops. Which, during the US East Coast's many snow's last winter, and NYC's slow response, led to the anomaly of clear sidewalks and impassable streets. I now live in an apartment, but I've cleaned many a sidewalk and driveway in my time.
Ah, private driveways! I get it.
My dh says if it's a private place in front of a building, it's for the janitor, if it's a house, you're stuck you have to hire someone.
Quote:
Excuse not to go to work? Only if you want the economy to shut down for the winter.
Well, when you can't go, you can't go. "I'm blocked because of the snow" is definitely an excuse, especially if there is no strong man to do it. Of course he'll tell you to hire someone to do it, here it's often a job for Romanian jobless workers.
Quote:
I think maybe America is more rural? Could explain the difference.
Davka in more rural areas, here, people can be blocked for DAYS!
Well, when you can't go, you can't go. "I'm blocked because of the snow" is definitely an excuse, especially if there is no strong man to do it. Of course he'll tell you to hire someone to do it, here it's often a job for Romanian jobless workers.
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Hi boss. Thanks for payiing me 250,000 a year but I can't get my car out of the driveway because of all the snow so I'm not coming into work today. I may be there by noon Wednesday, 'kay boss?
Ruchel, how many days a year do you think that one will work?
I know, it's cultural.
Gosh, I never realized snow removal was something to be so proud of!
Where you live, it's probably cleared before it hits the ground. At least that's basically how it was in Skokie. In NJ/NY... well, you've seen the news....
Well, when you can't go, you can't go. "I'm blocked because of the snow" is definitely an excuse, especially if there is no strong man to do it. Of course he'll tell you to hire someone to do it, here it's often a job for Romanian jobless workers.
!
Hi boss. Thanks for payiing me 250,000 a year but I can't get my car out of the driveway because of all the snow so I'm not coming into work today. I may be there by noon Wednesday, 'kay boss?
Ruchel, how many days a year do you think that one will work?
I know, it's cultural.
Will probably work as long as it is true and you don't refuse to hire someone for it. If it is snowing so bad, boss probably has the same problems, or his street is blocked, or he can't move on the highway, maybe he also doesn't find a worker... he knows all about it!!
YES it is cultural. Some would mock a mother would stay home a few days with a sick 6 yr old - what he can't stay home alone and shut up? How many days will it work??
I'm from Scandinavia and cleaning snow away has never been something I have heard bragged about either.
Personally I dont see the Israeli mentality thats being described as good either.
Foxx, good post btw, I agreed with everything you said! Not that it will make any difference or even make a dent.
When it's hard, it helps people to take pride in hardship and qualify others as weak or as not getting supposed benefits ("character"?). I do get it. It's human. But don't expect me to want to do the same.
Gosh, I never realized snow removal was something to be so proud of!
Where you live, it's probably cleared before it hits the ground. At least that's basically how it was in Skokie. In NJ/NY... well, you've seen the news....
Hah! It depends on whether it's an election year. This past year, the snow could barely touch down before it was whisked away. The sidewalks, of course, are a constant headache, and a favorite way for neighbors to get back at one another is reporting an uncleared sidewalk to the city.
We have an elderly gay couple down the block who have long been aggravated by the increasing number of frum people with kids on the street. Their aggravation simmered more-or-less silently until another gay couple moved in -- with their two adopted kids. So now gay couple #1 was really annoyed, since they feel that kids are icky and that respectable gay people shouldn't get near them. So it went from being a frum lifestyle versus gay lifestyle conflict to being a gay political quarrel. Couple #1 keeps turning Couple #2 in for not shoveling properly, and sometimes they just turn everyone on the block in. Keeps things lively during those winter months.
Hey, maybe I should approach Couple #1 and suggest that they donate money to send Couple #2's kids to camp!
Ruchel, it's so much fun to shovel snow!!!! Where I live everyone kind of fights over who should shovel!!! My landlord clears the front of the house, and my husband clears the stairs. and when we go to the bus shimi insists on clearing whatever's left of it! then he goes to shovel the front of everyone else's house.
I do agree that a pregnant woman shouldnt shovel snow, it's too strenuous. why couldnt your dh do it?
and forget going in to work, what about going ot the store? or putting your kid on the schoolbus? you'd rather be locked indoors?
Here it's considered cold and annoying (tiring if there is a lot)... Yeah I would rather be indoors a few day, especially if the snow stays it means it's really cold... when there was a lot of it I didn't want DH to bother, especially hard snow.
BH BH it is really rare to have such a bad winter that you're blocked several days! BH also now we're in a city/apartment. And if you know the streets or roads are blocked anyway... you don't bother, you can't go anywhere!
If the latter, I know I can't focus on parts of my job (I.e., statistics) if there is a stream of people in my office. Sending little Huey, Dewey and Louis to camp would be the equivalent of my closing my office door and letting my calls go to voice mail.
If youre already going with an office analogy here is my take:
if youre an amazing multitasker then you can do statistics *and* phone calls/meet people at the same time, then wow, youre a wonderful worker. Keep doing what youre doing.
But if youre terrible at multitasking and have a short attention span, and your customers are incredibly draining & demanding and the phone calls just dont stop streaming in, and at the same time your boss expects you to do all the bookkeeping and filing every single day, after a month of accomplishing nothing and yelling at the callers, sobbing at the end of the workday because you have to leave all office work for past 5 pm when the voicemail finally kicks in, and are getting annoyed looks from your boss.... you would probably ask a willing coworker to please take over the phone calls for four hours of your workday so you can do the rest of your expected duties during that time.
especially if your boss (aka dh) is willing to pay that coworker and actually asks you to please not take calls all day but let someone else take them, because the rest of the office work isnt getting done... whats teh problem???
If the latter, I know I can't focus on parts of my job (I.e., statistics) if there is a stream of people in my office. Sending little Huey, Dewey and Louis to camp would be the equivalent of my closing my office door and letting my calls go to voice mail.
If youre already going with an office analogy here is my take:
if youre an amazing multitasker then you can do statistics *and* phone calls/meet people at the same time, then wow, youre a wonderful worker. Keep doing what youre doing.
But if youre terrible at multitasking and have a short attention span, and your customers are incredibly draining & demanding and the phone calls just dont stop streaming in, and at the same time your boss expects you to do all the bookkeeping and filing every single day, after a month of accomplishing nothing and yelling at the callers, sobbing at the end of the workday because you have to leave all office work for past 5 pm when the voicemail finally kicks in, and are getting annoyed looks from your boss.... you would probably ask a willing coworker to please take over the phone calls for four hours of your workday so you can do the rest of your expected duties during that time.
especially if your boss (aka dh) is willing to pay that coworker and actually asks you to please not take calls all day but let someone else take them, because the rest of the office work isnt getting done... whats teh problem???
I know this isn't supposed to be an exact analogy but I am still extremely uncomfortable with the 'boss (aka dh)' bit. Do you really see your dh as your boss? Wow. I would see a SAHM and a working dh as partners, not as employee and boss. Partners who can offer constructive criticism, of course, but not a hierarchy.
As for the rest of the analogy. Let's not dream here. There are no willing co-workers who want to take over your extra administrative drudgery. No co-worker wants to volunteer four hours of their day for you. This fantasy co-worker is the personification of tzeddeka, I guess. Well, in the real business world, no one is going to be giving you tzeddeka so you can get your job done, unless you really are a basket case.
I agree with whoever it was that said that if one can't cope with getting one's job done, and one doesn't want to change any other factors, then maybe one should be changing those job responsibilities. Usually that means, in the real world, that there will be less status and less money. Let's say a surgeon can't cope with operating 8 hours a day at a prestigious hospital a 2 hour commute from his home. He doesn't want to move his family nearer the hospital. So he decides to operate 5 hours a day at a local unknown hospital. He gets paid half of what he earned, and he loses all the big shot fame he had. C'est la vie. You can only do what you have strength for.
Same with a SAHM. She can only do what she has strength for. Now if a SAHM can't cope with the job she has and its responsibilities, something has to change. If she doesn't want to make any major life changes (number of kids, location, income, yadda yadda) - AND she CANNOT fulfill her housewife duties with her kids at home all day, not in the summer, not on Pesach vacation or chanuka, etc - and she DOES NOT have money to send them to camp -- well , the logical thing would be to adjust those housewife duties. Rethink them. NOT to ask for tzeddeka. Shalhevet said it very well - it's like a man asking the community for help so his wife can have dinner ready for him on time.
Cut back should be the solution, not ask for tzeddeka. Just like the surgeon example above, cutting back sometimes costs one's prestige, status. A SAHM with a messy home might be looked down upon in some communities. Well, in my eyes it's better to change job expectations (messy/clean) than to ask for tzeddeka to uphold impossible ideals. Yes, very often IMPOSSIBLE ideals - they are certainly impossible if you can't uphold them on all the many, many days your kids are home from school, and you don't have money to get them out of your hair on those days.
Clean home. Dinner on time. Calm, collected wife. All important, wonderful, lovely. What man doesn't want that? But you know what, reality is that many of us have to deal with frazzled evenings. Indeed, many women work and only get home 30 min before dinner. Maybe they should receive tzeddeka so they can order take-out and their husbands won't have to be deprived of 'normal' domestic life?
Gosh, I never realized snow removal was something to be so proud of!
Your parents never informed you that shoveling snow builds character? I thought all parents knew that one.
Doing dishes builds character too.
If you inform your parents that they shoveled plenty of snow in their childhoods and it didn't seem to help them any, it means you still have too little character and had better shovel the walkway as well.
(My dad really did tell us that snow builds character, but he also always shoveled with us and shoveled the most even with a bad back. So I'm not complaining about a childhood of drudgery here, just laughing at Tamiri's old-school references to "character" which I think of as in the same category of "well when I was your age I had to walk to school five miles in weather like this").
