My friend with three kids keeps them home all summer and just thinking about those two months for her makes me want the structure days of summer even more. They wake up late, wear pjs till noonm destroy the house, and then she leaves the house all frazzled at three pm to take them somewhere cheap and local. Then her dh gets home to a mess and no dinner because the kids were too active to let her be in the kitchen a little and he has to listen to her vents.
My kids are home two weeks or so till day camp starts and including most of friday till monday every week. We spend a lot of time together building nice memories and enjoying each other. But...eleven or so weeks every single day is a bit much for me to entertain active boys who need structure and discipline badly.
FS, I am not speaking about America either and I understood the year you were referring to as you mentioned them several times. I can tell you how it worked in Europe as I am from Europe and its nothing like what you describe, what you describe is unusual. Ppl were born in shtetls and stayed in them. The same for most nonjewish ppl.
If Mamabear is right about giving your clients the same treatment, I am happy that I havent been your client, there have been a time in my life where reading your posts would have destroyed my self esteem but had I been your client you could have led me to suicidal thoughts/attempts because you'd make me feel like an complete failure.
chavs, western europe in the late twentieth century has very little in common with the shtetls. Even eastern europe has changed quite a bit.
...So why then do you denigrade life then in the "alter heim", describing it as if it were gehennom personified while at the same time pushing the idea over and over about how important it is to keep the traditions of the "alter heim"?
Cognitive dissonance anyone?
I don't think we are making the same point at all. You cannot say that an entire generation is (fill in the blank) based on some posts on Imamother.
As for your comment on cognitive dissonance, I would prefer to explain the discrepency with the old adage "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Certainly many Jews who moved to the US (I can't comment on other countries) seeking a better life did discard all the old ways. Those who chose to maintain certain cultural or religious practices (or chose to revive them after generations of assimilation) did so because there is some benefit to them.
MamaBear, what are the cultural differences, exactly?
Are you saying that because a woman in Willi is expected to keep a nice house and have dinner on the table at 6:12, that trumps all? That if her kids get in the way of that, she has no "excuse"? No one will suggest different parenting methods to make the house calmer and give suggestions as to how to keep a semblence of normalcy? Then of course camp is a necessity, and the society which promotes those standards will be totally understanding, and support the woman sending her children to camp. If the house needs to be neat and dinner needs to be on the table, you pay whatever cost to make it happen.
In my society, you either pay up or don't buy. A woman makes a decision regarding having children, and how she will keep her house. Her husband may be there to help her or not. If her house is a mess, and dinner isn't on the table - there isn't much likelihood that anyone is going to pay to send her kids to camp. We could suggest things for the woman to make her life easier. We could suggest she holds off having more kids etc. But no way are we going to pay for her kids to go to camp.
Is that the cultural difference? If so, yeah. We're talking different planets here.
So DON'T pay for camp.
You just don't have to.
But if someone else is willing fine. Why make a bid deal of someone asking. So they ask! Your answer is no.
You can be polite about it or slam the door in their face, though the second isn't moral in my book, but why get "sick" from the question?
Like I said, I put a few agurot here, a few shekels there, into tzeddakah boxes and people's hands. It isn't going to pay for anyone to get to camp. It also isn't going to pay for a/c even if someone needs it, groceries or anything else.
If my shekel goes to help some child have a nicer summer, why should it make me ill? It makes me glad!
FS, I am not speaking about America either and I understood the year you were referring to as you mentioned them several times. I can tell you how it worked in Europe as I am from Europe and its nothing like what you describe, what you describe is unusual. Ppl were born in shtetls and stayed in them. The same for most nonjewish ppl.
If Mamabear is right about giving your clients the same treatment, I am happy that I havent been your client, there have been a time in my life where reading your posts would have destroyed my self esteem but had I been your client you could have led me to suicidal thoughts/attempts because you'd make me feel like an complete failure.
chavs, western europe in the late twentieth century has very little in common with the shtetls. Even eastern europe has changed quite a bit.
I know I am from Western Europe on my mothers side as well as some Eastern European roots and the Middle East from my fathers side. Growing up in Western Europe I have a good idea of life in the past but I have read enough about life in Eastern Europe to get a good idea from there as well.
So DON'T pay for camp.
You just don't have to.
But if someone else is willing fine. Why make a bid deal of someone asking. So they ask! Your answer is no.
You can be polite about it or slam the door in their face, though the second isn't moral in my book, but why get "sick" from the question?
Like I said, I put a few agurot here, a few shekels there, into tzeddakah boxes and people's hands. It isn't going to pay for anyone to get to camp. It also isn't going to pay for a/c even if someone needs it, groceries or anything else.
If my shekel goes to help some child have a nicer summer, why should it make me ill? It makes me glad!
This is what I dont get. 60 pages when you can just say no. I really dont get what the big deal is.
I dont start threads complaining about causes I dont want to support. If I dont want to support something I can just say no and get on with my life and if others want to support a cause I dont want to support then good for them, it takes all sorts.
Going back to the original posting, not this thread, the OP was lamenting the fact that she had no way to send her kids to camp. There was no further info given. We don't know whether she's an UWS housefrau, a Willi Chassidish lady or an MO living in Northern NJ. So the Willi/Chassidish type ladies were pro feeling sorry for her. The MO pay-your-way ladies were pro suggesting she get over it and move forward in a positive manner.
Initially, this wasn't about tzedaka, per se. It was about whining when life's reality (gee, where did all those kids come from? is it summer AGAIN? our checking account balance isn't looking to great) hits you in the face, and what you do about it.
I laugh when reading that FS's approach seems so tough to a lot of ladies here. She is just using common sense.
Even if people's "reality" has shifted, it doesn't mean that they can't be brought back to common sense. The more "reality" shifts, the easier it is to be lethargic and not pro-active. FS is promoting pro-activeness, from what I can tell.
I agree with some of the things that freidasima wrote in her posts, just not the way she presented it. We are not her therapy clients and I have to say BH for that. I don't think I could handle her therapy.
Tamiri, this discussion has longn since veered away from the original premise. We're now into these 2 conversations:
1. SAHMs should be able to manage their kids without their entire life/home falling apart, no matter how difficult their kids/living situation / mother's level of tolerance is.
2. Why is today's genreation unable to cope.
Forget the whole "should I pay for your kids to go to camp" argument. I'm having this discussion with Friedasima about the ability of today's young moms to cope.
Turns out, her definition of coping vs mine (and most of the american posters) definition of coping are completely different.
A man coming home after a day of work to find his house a warzone, no warm dinner, no clothes to wear, the wife a worn out hag crying on the couch = sorry, not coping. Even if Frieda thinks this is fine.
You propose this woman stop having kids. Why??? Why limit the perpetuity of klal yisroel if the simple, simple fact of having five of those six kids out of the house from 9:30 - 3:30 will make all the difference in the world for this woman's ability to 'cope' and be an akeres habayis/mom? Rather she should go on b.c. than send her kids out during the day and resume her normal role as a wife and mother? Sorry, you will never make me agree with you.
MamaDear how many homes do you know of, even those where the kids are sent out to camp and school, that the house is sparkling, the dishes are done and a good, warm dinner is on the table every night? The truth.....?????
1. SAHMs should be able to manage their kids without their entire life/home falling apart, no matter how difficult their kids/living situation / mother's level of tolerance is.
2. Why is today's genreation unable to cope.
.
Okay, I'll bite: Why IS today's generation unable to cope? Do you have an answer?
Well, I am MO. And I am pro compassion AND pro moving on if no camp can be found.
I also disagree talking harsh helps everyone. I'm sure some need it. Frankly, hearing about the top 10% (in my experience, my dh's experience, my family experience, people I see around...) strongest people do NOT help me, inspire me, or even make me feel a desire to emulate them. It's just another world to me. As removed from mine as the world of my cleaning lady where parents can make you quit school and clean homes at 9. Or Irish travellers. or... whatever.
Mamabear if you are going to quote my PM to you that's fine, it wasn't private but please be precise: I did not say that:
"A man coming home after a day of work to find his house a warzone, no warm dinner, no clothes to wear, the wife a worn out hag crying on the couch = sorry, not coping. Even if Frieda thinks this is fine. "
I did say that I think that not coping is someone who is too paralyzed to carry out any of the normal activities of every day life or a woman whose house is overcome and crawling with bugs and she isn't capable of moving to do anything about it. Being in a deep depression (clinical) is also not coping in my book and that of any therapist. However I did say that I think that is is not considered "not coping" when one has a bunch of small kids at home to have a messy (not filthy) house, not to always have meals ready on time, and to occasionally yell at your kids and even potch them when they deserve it. I also said it's normal for mothers of young children to get so frustrated that they cry sometimes."
I did NOT say that it is normal to be a "worn out hag crying on the couch" on a daily basis when your husband gets home. Let's not take it to extremes.
But yes, there really is a cultural difference here. Tamiri is Israeli born in America and came here young. So did I. And all of you who are so upset by my "toughlove" methods, understand that I work in Eretz Yisroel, aka ISRAEL and it works very well with Israelis who by nature and upbringing are often much more tough than their american counterparts of the same age, particularly after army age.
To answer the question of why we don't just say "no" and leave it, here is the answer I had written previously before I saw what other people had added."
"Because what Tamiri is saying and what I have been saying and a few others who have left the thread already were saying is that by anyone saying "yes" to such a situation it means that they are supporting, and perpetuating creating a community of people who expect to have their cake, eat it and have someone else pay for it over and over.
And that creates, to our mind, an unsustainable form of religious Jewish life. As frum Jews who care about the Jewish people this unsustainable form of Jewish life affects us all, and not only those in that community. Why? Because it's not just "camp" but so many other things which certain communities are projecting as a necessity. It's a certain type of hachnosas kallo that has nothing to do with what the original meaning of the mitzvo was, it's a certain type of "keeping up traditions" (hence my mention of traditions) that those in that community can't afford because of creating standards that "everyone" there has to keep to, which they CANT keep to on their own, at least financially.
And over and over we - people like Tamiri, myself and other frum Jews - are being bombarded by requests from people and organizations supporting people, from such communities. That's the problem. Sure, you can say "no" over and over and over, but how many yidden are wiling to let other yidden starve? Which once again leads us to something said over and over. People having kids they can't afford to raise, sometimes even to feed.
And...for the third time in a row as a first word...THAT concerns us very much because WE - those religious Jews who are working and sacrificing so that we can support our children - are the ones getting hit with requests and as I said, how many of us are going to turn down supporting starving Jewish children?
But it starts somewhere and "camp for all" in these communities because of various cultural standards is just one aspect of a bigger problem that ultimately affects all of us.
Last edited by freidasima on Thu, Jul 14 2011, 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Initially, this wasn't about tzedaka, per se. It was about whining when life's reality (gee, where did all those kids come from? is it summer AGAIN? our checking account balance isn't looking to great) hits you in the face, and what you do about it.
Wow are you for real!?! I am stupefied. I was under the impression that imamother was a place for women to come and well, whine. I was under the impression that what we aim to do is to listen when someone has a hardship (even if we dont get it) and commiserate so the person can feel better. Whether or not its on imamother when another human being expresses pain isnt the appropriate thing to do to offer sympathy and a listening ear.
If someone ants to help the other person move past his/her hurt isnt the most constructive approach to start with listening and trying to understand the person? Arent we supposed to be compassionate?
MamaDear how many homes do you know of, even those where the kids are sent out to camp and school, that the house is sparkling, the dishes are done and a good, warm dinner is on the table every night? The truth.....?????
Uhhhh I never said the word SPARKLING. major difference between sparkling and war-zone. and you might find it extremely hard to believe, but where I live, 90% of SAHMs have a warm dinner on the stove/in the oven by the time the kids come home from school. Or, it's at least 70% ready. it's DEFINITELY ready by the time the husband comes home from work. YES.
and, may I add to the therapist: Not coping isn't an option in most cases. We are sent out into the world and told to cope. So we do. At least most of us. Unless there is mental distress going on, an adult is expected to cope, even if life is hard. That's what builds character. Or am I dating myself?
