Physical necessities haven't ever changed for as far back as I can think in human history.
1) Shelter from the elements.
2) Food enough to keep from starving and hopefully somewhat nutritious as well. One may add the tools in which to cook this food and on which to serve it but again, the food is the necessity, not the surroundings.
3) clothing enough so that one doesn't go naked
4) shoes in some places were optional but as we don't live in the climate in question, then shoes as well.
5) A minimal education of sorts, the definition of what that "minimal" means changing in time.
6) healthcare enough to keep one alive and as time went on to cure and prevent disease as well.
There are social and psychological necessities as well but people have lived without them.
1) love 2) human warmth and kindness 3) acceptance 4) friends 5) belief in something bigger than you be it a "G-d", an ideology or something similar.
If you are an adherent of a particular ideology or belief your list of necessities may be longer depending on the nature of that belief and its norms. For example it becomes a necessity for a Jewish man over a certain age to have a pair of tefilin, a tallis, tzitzis, a head covering. It becomes a necessity for a married woman to have some kind of head covering. Let's add things like a lulav and esrog, candles or oil to light on shabbes and yuntif etc.
The problem starts in two ways. When people start making conditions such as "you don't just need tefilin, you need mehudar tefilin" etc. Or when people add things to the list which aren't a direct derivative.
Camp is an example for many if not most SAHM's. Why? Because if you are working (and you work to have the money to buy food and pay for shelter etc. back to necessities...) then you need something to do with your small children as they can't be left alone while you work outside the house. But if you are home? And healthy? Why exactly is this a necessity?
So then it gets subjective. "For "me" it's a necessity because I don't have the strength to care for my children." but then what's the difference between that and "for me it's a necessity to have a $4000 custom sheitl because I really look good in it and it's important for me to look good" and "for me it's important to have a 4 wheel drive jeep because it's so much nicer to drive and makes me feel good".
Fine. If you can pay for it on your own. But to go to the public kupa and say "for me it's a necessity?"
Then you start getting into deep water. Which is what this thread is all about.
HR - easy to say "so just don't give". It's not that simple when good organizations which used to provide "real" necessities are being pushed by rabbonim and mechanchim, some of whom as we already wrote, have a vested interest in keeping camps alive because (a) they make a good living out of them during the summer or (b) they can send their own families free, start pushing these good organizations in the direction of "summer camp for all Jewish children is a necessity"....and then the organizations start paying for it in their list of things to pay for.
It's a subtle change from what used to be. And the consumer, sorry, the zedoko giver sometimes isn't even aware of it at the beginning until someone points out to them that "keren zedoko Rabbi X from X" is now paying for summer camp for SAHMs children."
Another thing is the slippery slope where people feel uncomfortable saying "no" when they are contacted by someone they know asking to pay for camp for someone's children that person knows. We had an example of this earlier on this thread where someone was asked to contact someone wealthy that they knew to ask them to pay for camp for a third party. It is very uncomfortable in such situations to say "no", but the actual request was totally out of place.
I go back to what I say. This is a generation with no shame. It is no shame in their eyes to take zedoko, it is no shame to live off zedoko, it is no shame to plan their entire existence from numbers of children through the education of those children, through the bar mitzvahs and chasunehs of those childeren and through the vacations that they take....based primarily on zedoko.
And to me, as I have said over and over, like others on this thread, that creates a twisted Jewish people which is unsustainable and in terms of Jewish values, unJewish.
Chavs that's really dangerous
That's like saying that once a family gets welfare money they know what they need and if they decide to buy a 64 inch TV with it instead of food for their children....that's what they need.
No. I do NOT trust some families. Simply because they don't have judgement as I see it. Because some of those same families dug all by themselves the hole that they are in in the first place by making really bad decisions including about what is a necessity and what is not.
You're reminding me. I'm reading Abe Lincoln's biography, and Lincoln's dad was exactly like that. He couldn't feed his family, they were pretty much starving. His children went barefoot and they lived in a three walled lean to in the snowy winter.
And then his father spent 3 dollars (a bunch of money in that time) on silk suspenders...
Silk suspenders? That's a good one.
but I'm serious. So many people have such bad judgement which is pushed by a sense of immediate childish gratification on the one hand to have what they want "here" and "now", and a feeling that "there will always be someone to pay" on the other hand....
For them one needs a responsible adult behind them. The problem is when THEY are adults. And then what? In a sense by creating a society of people used to living off someone else we are perpetuating a sense of never ending childhood in which one does not have to pay for one's desires and choices. Because part of adulthood is making sensible choices and trying, at least milechaschila, to pay for them yourself.
So do you think we are perpetuating a society of children here?
To me it is simple. A person asks, a person can give or not.
I agree. But sometimes it's maaser, sometimes it's tzedaka, and sometimes it's just a present.
If my friend who is employed and has money to go out to parties each weekend asks me to give her money to help buy a shirt I can go ahead and give it to her, but I can't later claim that as part of my maaser. It's a nice thing to do, but tzedaka it isn't.
eta - This isn't just theory. I'd rather not give details of specific bizarre requests I've had, but some were very clearly not in the category of tzedaka. I don't resent anyone for asking (I do think some could use a lesson in How Life Works, but it's not my place to give it), I'm just saying the nature of the request should be considered when deciding whether or not to give and how much.
Last edited by ora_43 on Sun, Jul 10 2011, 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
To me it is simple. A person asks, a person can give or not.
I agree. But sometimes it's maaser, sometimes it's tzedaka, and sometimes it's just a present.
If my friend who is employed and has money to go out to parties each weekend asks me to give her money to help buy a shirt I can go ahead and give it to her, but I can't later claim that as part of my maaser. It's a nice thing to do, but tzedaka it isn't.
Different people draw the tzedaka/gift line differently and that's fine, but it does need to be drawn somewhere.
That I'll grant you. There are probably halachic considerations. What is most preferred is to give a man a job so he can support his family; and that means a good job where he can become self-supporting. I know of plenty workers if anyone is interested in people who need jobs and who are trying to become self sufficient. (Honestly I can put you in touch with the job-desk counselor.)
chavs,
personally when I was talking about dangerous giving, I was talking about your argument that the giver doesn't need to worry about what the money will be used for, not about what any particular organization does or doesn't do.
There are a lot of arguments on this thread. While I'm sorry if anyone's feelings got hurt, I don't think it's my responsibility to make sure that everyone is keeping the arguments separate and interpreting them correctly. And in any case, if somebody is offended because they've misunderstand my zillion posts thus far, a zillion-and-first post isn't likely to clarify anything for them.
Silk suspenders? That's a good one.
but I'm serious. So many people have such bad judgement which is pushed by a sense of immediate childish gratification on the one hand to have what they want "here" and "now", and a feeling that "there will always be someone to pay" on the other hand....
For them one needs a responsible adult behind them. The problem is when THEY are adults. And then what? In a sense by creating a society of people used to living off someone else we are perpetuating a sense of never ending childhood in which one does not have to pay for one's desires and choices. Because part of adulthood is making sensible choices and trying, at least milechaschila, to pay for them yourself.
So do you think we are perpetuating a society of children here?
I don't think so.
I don't think there are so many people out there with bad judgment or a need for instant gratification, or at least I hope not.
I do think that people are often pushed into decisions that aren't financially sound for them by the community. Which IMO is a very different issue. It's not about any one individual's middot, but about making communal change.
I think camp is an example because if everyone else's child is in camp, your child really will have a miserable summer if they don't get to go too. Whereas if the community doesn't push camp so strongly, your child will have plenty of friends to play with either way, and while camp might have been more fun, they can have fun without it too.
Ditto, for example, living in a certain area. If nobody follows you out to a cheaper area it really will be detrimental to your emotional health and that of your family to live there, if other families are willing to make the jump as well then everyone can benefit together.
Ditto for schooling, for working as a cleaning lady (not an issue in my community BH but elsewhere) or in certain other jobs, for going to university, etc.
So it's not that people are irresponsible and the community isn't forcing them to grow up IMHO - it's that even responsible people are having new needs forced onto them.
Everyone I know has a cleaner and most ppl I know if not all send their kids to camp albeit not the whole summer which it seems is more prevalent in America and possibly Israel. Personally this does not affect how I feel. I do not feel like I need a cleaner or camp. I have friends though who do and I dont think its because everyone else does, I just think that they personally have different needs then I do. I dont think most ppl feel that they need something because everyone else are doing it, it is possible that there are ppl who have needs that you dont understand but are legitimate and not a sign of society going down or whatnot. If I am gonna get technical I dont understand why its hard having your kids at home because it isnt for me, but I have an intellectual understanding that just because I dont understand it, it doesnt mean it isnt real and that perhaps there are ppl who are different to me. So no, I dont personally understand why some mothers have a hard time when their kids are not in school or camp but I have seen it and heard of it on imamother for example and understand that they do and that they are not just spoiled or wanting luxury but that they feel a very real need. I dont have to personally understand them in order to be sympathetic and understand that what they feel is legitimate and for them a need.
I don't think sending kids to camp is a matter of life and death not physically or emotionally, so on those levels I agree with you FS.
In terms of needs, different people are capable of different things. For example: I need my sheitel washed and set, I took a course to save money doing it myself and it was a disaster - I have 2 left hands. Some might say that having someone else do my sheitel is a luxury because many people wash their own wigs just fine. There are some things I can do (why can't I think of ANY now that I'm posting) that some people are incapable of.
If a woman does not have the emotional capacity or creativity or patience etc to have her brood home with her all day, then sending them to camp or a program of sorts is a need for her. Irregardless of how many other women from how many previous generations have done it.
If someone cannot afford their needs they are still responsible to take care of them- either by compromising or getting help etc. However this is what we call a "bdieved" situation. It is mindboggling to think that there are people who ENTER a situation with a choice and the knowledge that their needs cannot be met.
Mazeltov MB.
Chavs can you divide into paragraphs instead of one long run on paragraph, it's hard to follow what you are writing.
If you live in an area where everyone has a cleaner (I don't have one, some of my neighbors don't and believe me we could all afford it but it's our choice) or where everyone sends their kids off to camp that's fine.
But what if someone can't and is living there? She chose to live in such a community. She can't afford their standards. Do you think that someone like that should be supported? Why? Because she chose to live in that community?
A poor person chooses to live in an upper middle class community. Her choice. But she can't afford it. She can't afford the standards. But they are a "necessity" in that community. She is totally out of place in that she can't afford it. What is she doing there in the first place? Why should we support her (we, not just that specific community because as Shalhevet pointed out, there are certain kehillas which shnorr from everyone but only give to their own) for her choice of geogrpahy which made a certain lifestyles a necessity?
Ora halevai that you are right but over and over, personally, through my place of work, and not necesserily through imamother, do I see people acting financially and personally irresponsible. Like children. With no sense of balance, judgement or bottom line. Judgement day, one would say. Like it's never going to come and someone else will always pay the bills.
An entire society lived like that in America vis a vis housing, taking loans they couldn't afford and that they knew they could never really pay off, in order to live high on the hog. And then lose it. Living beyong their means. And so...when they lose their dwelling place because of irresponsible choices, do you think that they have a right to turn to others and say "pay off my mortgage as I can't afford it any more?"
What is the difference between that and a person milechaschila choosing a lifestyle that they can't afford and saying to others "you pay!"?
I'll keep the paragraphs in mind and try to make it clearer.
My point exactly. I do live in an area where everyone has a cleaner but I dont. We had for a period but as it happened decided that we couldnt afford her. For me having a cleaner was not a need and I knew I could handle life fine without one. Not that it didnt help (a lot) but I knew I could manage and that it wasnt a need. There were other more pressing needs that others might not neccesarily call a need (such as good quality fresh veggies and fruit over canned goods and gong out with dh for a coffee occasionally-babysitter not included so if my mil or bil werent available we wouldnt go out) but I chose to prioritise them over a cleaner.
There are other women for whom having a cleaner is essential and if they have to budget and prioritise a cleaner or camp over fresh veggies then I am not going to judge. I am sure that if they make that choice they are not doing it because thats what everyone does but because its a need to them.
If someone prioritises things and des it because thats what everyone does then its still not my business. For some ppl keeping up with the cohens is really important and if they fail to keep up they feel down right uncomfortable and their quality of life is reduced. Listen, I am sure this is very few and no, I cant say I get it, I couldnt care a tiny hoot what other ppl thin of me in general but I understand that others do and I dont think they are silly for this just wired differently.
To answer your question.
should someone who lives in a community where the standard is to have a cleaner have one if she cant afford it?
Lets say Mrs Blink cant afford one but feels like she needs it to fit in or feels like she needs it for other reasons (lets saynot enough time in the day/ time management/big family/overwhelmed etc), the should she get a cleaner?
The answer to the question is that if someone wants to support her then sure why not? I have no issue with this.
If she gets tzedokoh money because money is tight and her and her dh agreed to spend the money on a cleaner and assuming that that this isnt breaking the rules from the tzedokoh organisaion I also have no issue with it.
If she chooses to budget so her family lives of canned goods then gezunteheit peace be with her.
In all of the above scenarios I have no issue with Mrs Blink getting a cleaner. I really dont. This is my answer.
chavs, I'm not talking about social pressure, like "everyone else has a cleaner so I want one too."
I'm talking about reality, as in, "every single other child is in camp, so if my child doesn't go he'll have nobody to play with."
Not wanting something because other people have it, but needing something because of the reality they've created.
friedasima -
I think that if things are bad in just one area you can move, but sometimes there's really nowhere to realistically move to. Or other communities have their own problems (eg. maybe in a certain city all the children go to camp in the summer, while in the suburbs nearby camp is optional but the day schools are all of the very expensive variety).
You have a good point about entire societies acting like that. But I think our points are complementary and not contradictory. You're saying society didn't put the breaks on, I'm saying sometimes societies can actively discourage even naturally responsible people from being responsible.
Probably plenty of people in America who wanted to buy just as much house as they could afford were told, "How can you buy such a small place? Your kids will all be on top of each other," or "You'll just have to sell in three years and then you'll lose money. Buy a bigger place and grow into it." Things like that.
The answer to the question is that if someone wants to support her then sure why not? I have no issue with this.
If she gets tzedokoh money because money is tight and her and her dh agreed to spend the money on a cleaner and assuming that that this isnt breaking the rules from the tzedokoh organisaion I also have no issue with it.
If she chooses to budget so her family lives of canned goods then gezunteheit peace be with her.
I agree with this as long as this is a family being supported because they are not managing for a reason like unemployment, illness etc. I also think they should be given money and be allowed to use it for what they feel is a priority. Obviously we are not talking about alcoholics or abusive parents here. We are talking about normal, responsible people who shouldn't be humiliated by being told how to spend their money. If they think Shabbos shoes are more important than a trip out for their children during the summer, or vice versa, that's their prerogative.
Of course sometimes it just makes more sense to give vouchers for a store (when the owner donates them at a substantial discount) or food (which can be bought more cheaply in bulk for a hundred families). But those kind of considerations aside, normal people should be respected to make good choices.
BUT, we are talking here about families having to rely on tzedaka. That is different from someone saying I have enough money for the basics, but I would like a cushy life, so please give me money from the camp fund. Since I am entitled to it. Just like the mother down the road with a special needs child. Or the one across the street who has to work.
I live in an OOT neighborhood where most families sent their kids to the local Gan Izzy. My kids are not in camp, for financial reasons and we are all having a fabulous time!
I have 3 kids under 5, and we take trips to libraries, museums, local water parks (too hot for parks), Barnes and Noble, ice cream, arts n crafts and bike riding.
I work during the year and so I'm relishing in all this time to spend with my kids. I wouldn't dream of asking for tzedaka to pay for camp.
Also, to all those who said its completely overwhelming - treat it like a job. Don't try to do everything you normally would when the kids are at school. Don't spend your day about doing errands (although I do once or twice a week), and its part of the fun I.e. post office, grocery, car wash, etc) Get a babysitter for 4 hours one morning a week ($40-50) and get all that done alone.
its a tiny percentage of what you'd pay for camp.
I have to say, I agree with Freidasima and Ora on this one!
Lets say Mrs Blink cant afford one but feels like she needs it to fit in or feels like she needs it for other reasons (lets saynot enough time in the day/ time management/big family/overwhelmed etc), the should she get a cleaner?
The answer to the question is that if someone wants to support her then sure why not? I have no issue with this.
If she gets tzedokoh money because money is tight and her and her dh agreed to spend the money on a cleaner and assuming that that this isnt breaking the rules from the tzedokoh organisaion I also have no issue with it.
If she chooses to budget so her family lives of canned goods then gezunteheit peace be with her.
I don't think that quite answers the question.
What if money isn't tight enough that they would need tzedaka without this expense?
What if nobody is going to offer to support her of their own initiative?
Also friedasima's question wasn't about what if she has a big family, what if she's overwhelmed, etc, but specifically, what if she feels it's a need because of community standards.
I don't think it's a common scenario, btw, and I also don't think it's central to the whole camp debate. But as long as you're answering the question.
ora I am not sure I understand, sorry.
Are you saying that you are not talking about social pressure? I think FS was so I was answering her with the above, it could be I misunderstood her as well though.
I am not 100% sure what your question is. I can try to answer what I think you asked and if I get it wrong, I am sorry, but could you try to rephrase it (if you dont mind).
If I understand correctly you are talking about someone who feels a need because everyone else has something so they or their child cant possibly cope without it if no one else can?
Wow, I have never met anyone who feels this way about life I think or at least spoken to someone who feels they need something, not because of fitting in or wanting it but because other ppl have it.
I would think that the need must feel very big to them then and going without could feel pretty scary.
I couldnt possbly make a judgement about them when I havent to the best of my knowledge ever felt this way. It would feel entirely wrong to judge someone who I dont understand at all. I'd feel bad for them for sure though.
Shalhevet, I think I understand what you are saying now. I would think that a family that would be able to budget to somehow save up and possibly forgo other items (such as shabbos shoes as you mentioned) would be advised to do this before asking for money for camp. It would definitely seem better if were able to pay for their kids somehow before receiving tzedokoh. If otoh they are only able to make ends meet and there is nothing to cut down on then I would think they'd be eligible for help for camp if such a fund existed.
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