lol, I feel like the guest on a talk show.
I am not sure if I answered your questions in my previous post that I posted before I read this one so I'll try to answer you.
Just to point out, this is more of an academc question seeing as nothing is gonna change regardless of my views. I am not in charge of any tzedkoh funds and cannot pasken but the debate is entertaining never the less.
If money isnt tight without paying for camp and they are able to get by but dont have enough money to save and cant cut down other places in their budget because they only have what they need. I'd think they are eligible.
If they want to send to camp because thats what everyone else are doing and they feel their kids miss out or that their kids wont fit n or that they wont feel in and they feel so strongly about it yet cant afford it, then I still dont have a problem with someone paying for them.
If no one volunteered and they asked, they can always be told no. If someone asked me for money and I didnt have the money to give them or I chose to give my tzedokoh money else where I'd say no, but no harm was done for them asking.
I am not talking about social pressure. I am talking about reality. Not "I need to send my child to camp because everyone else is sending their child to camp, and I absolutely must do what others are doing," but "My child needs a chance to interact with other children his own age during the summer. Since all the other children his own age are in camp, he will only have social interaction if he also goes to camp. Therefore I need to send him to camp."
The first is about wanting it only because other people have it, the second is about wanting it because of a specific benefit that can only be provided by having it, but could have been provided in a different way if other people were acting differently.
Friedasima, OTOH, is talking about social pressure. Her question was not, "Do you think there's any situation in which a tzedaka recipient should have cleaning help," but rather, as I read it, "If a person can afford their basic needs but cannot afford cleaning help, should they choose to live in a community where everyone else can afford cleaning help if by doing so they will come to feel that it is a need for them as well?" and following that, "If they did choose to live in that community, should they be given tzedaka specifically in order to live at community standards?"
You were answering as if Mrs. Blink is going to be getting tzedaka money in any case because of unemployment or some other issue, and as if she would need cleaning help wherever she lived due to a large family or some other issue. Which made it more of an answer to the first question than to friedasima's questions.
Did I answer any of the question successfully although to the wrong person? (can you read my reply to FS and her my reply to you and see what I fele about it?)
If you remember our discussion regarding homeschooling as to whether the benefits of school could be gotten elsewhere its clear that I think it could. The thing is that not all parents are able to provide for their kids in alternative ways for different reasons.
I have met ppl who feel that their kids would be much better of being homeschooled but dont feel able to put in what it takes to homeschool. Although I dont think its hard work or difficult to do I respect the fact that some ppl do seem to find it hard and cant do it.
I think that for some of the ppl I have spoken to they'd actually be able to do it and do it great if they gave it a shot. They'd see that its not actually that demanding and its quite doable. I am not saying this because I think everyone could do it (I dont think everyone can or should homeschool). I say it because I have seen that the are very capable and I believe in them(more then they do). If they cant take the first step though to de-mystify it so to speak, they cant and arent able. They arent beng silly or lazy, in their experience they cant do it and dont have it in them so wont do it and arent able to and as a result they need school even if it isnt ideal for their child.
To me this is the same thing. If these parents feel unable to provide for their own children and give then what they perceive as being necessary then they cant and they need camp. They might know that in some exotic communities (nowhere near their community) some women do whats described here as mummy camp but they feel that this would simply be beyond them. Then I'd have to believe them that it would be beyond them and that they'd need camp.
If you remember our discussion regarding homeschooling as to whether the benefits of school could be gotten elsewhere its clear that I think it could.
Yes, but your ability to provide (what you see as) the benefits of school in other ways relies on other parents' decisions. If all other children were in school until 5pm, then your decision to keep your son out of school would mean he would have no way to socialize with peers until that time, or maybe at all.
And the same is true for "mummy camp," a successful home "camp" relies on there being other children to play with, activities available for children, etc.
Then as I said, I'd assume that those mothers would need it for her children if she felt that her children needed to play with other children during the holidays.
I live in an OOT neighborhood where most families sent their kids to the local Gan Izzy. My kids are not in camp, for financial reasons and we are all having a fabulous time!
I have 3 kids under 5, and we take trips to libraries, museums, local water parks (too hot for parks), Barnes and Noble, ice cream, arts n crafts and bike riding.
I work during the year and so I'm relishing in all this time to spend with my kids. I wouldn't dream of asking for tzedaka to pay for camp.
Do you have a car? Or do you shlep on buses/trains with your 3 kids under 5?
Therein lies the difference.
And it is true that it's fun to take all those trips. (in a car that is!)
Update: Upsherin BH happend. We survived. BH. Whew. Now on to packing the rest of the house. We're all okay. yay .
Mazel tov! Must have been very strange for him, having all these people having at his hair; I assume he's seen enough upsherins himself to have some good feelings that "now it's my time."
May you see much nachas from your children!
I live in an OOT neighborhood where most families sent their kids to the local Gan Izzy. My kids are not in camp, for financial reasons and we are all having a fabulous time!
I have 3 kids under 5, and we take trips to libraries, museums, local water parks (too hot for parks), Barnes and Noble, ice cream, arts n crafts and bike riding.
I work during the year and so I'm relishing in all this time to spend with my kids. I wouldn't dream of asking for tzedaka to pay for camp.
Do you have a car? Or do you shlep on buses/trains with your 3 kids under 5?
Therein lies the difference.
And it is true that it's fun to take all those trips. (in a car that is!)
Again, maybe her life is harder than yours in other ways.
Maybe the difference is in her attitude.
Then as I said, I'd assume that those mothers would need it for her children if she felt that her children needed to play with other children during the holidays.
So... you're agreeing with what I said about communities pushing new needs? or you're restating what you said about how any need might be reasonable?
Update: Upsherin BH happend. We survived. BH. Whew. Now on to packing the rest of the house. We're all okay. yay .
Mazel Tov, loads of nachas.
Moving tip:
Label, label, label EVERY box, write the contents on the box what is in the box.
Better moving tip. Label Label Label every box - but not with its content, number every box and catalogue it, preferably using excel (it is going to be so worth it when you unpack) also color code boxes going into different rooms and storage.
Do not forget your catalogue in the last box you sealed
pack a suitcase with essentials for your family (linen, clothes etc) for two nights, so you don't have to worry about unpacking everything the first couple of nights in your new home.
When you are packing try putting things from specific drawers/shelves into the same boxes, so when you take them out to put them away in your new house they will go in the same place (especially if you are going to be using the same furniture).
Then as I said, I'd assume that those mothers would need it for her children if she felt that her children needed to play with other children during the holidays.
So... you're agreeing with what I said about communities pushing new needs? or you're restating what you said about how any need might be reasonable?
I am restating myself although I am not entirely sure about what you mean that a community is pushing their own needs, I have never heard this expression and I am not following. Who is the community? Is it the mother or all the mothers or the camp? I am not trying to be obtuse, I am just not following. It could be I agree with you.
Update: Upsherin BH happend. We survived. BH. Whew. Now on to packing the rest of the house. We're all okay. yay .
Mazel Tov, loads of nachas.
Moving tip:
Label, label, label EVERY box, write the contents on the box what is in the box.
Better moving tip. Label Label Label every box - but not with its content,
Agreed. That could be an invitation to thieves.
Hadn't thought about thieves, but I've found that it is a lot harder to find a specific item when you have to search every box for the contents. Much easier when you just check it up in the catalogue and search for the number - also remember to write the number clearly on all 3 top corners of the box (nothing like discovering you've written the numbers on the top of the boxes when they are piled 4 feet high).
Yes, we have a car. But assuming that camp cost $200 a kid, per week, for my family to sent our kids to school for 8 weeks would be $3200. Assuming it costs slightly more or less than that depending on the amount of kids, cost of camp etc, that halfway to a semi decent car.
2 summers of that, and you could have a car for 5 years.
In our neighborhood a car is a non negotiable expense (very little in walking distance, no deliveries etc).
It's really not that big of deal to watch your kids at home.
We have play dates, get errands done (with rewards and games built it in to keep it exciting) watch some movies, make bath time long and luxurious with lots of bubbles and toys, make cookies regularly, read a lot and altogether have a good summer.
Also Mama Bear - Camp discussion aside, I have some tips that might make your life more manageable:
-I get as much as I can bulk from Amazon (Toilet paper, cleaning supplies, cereals, paper towels etc) I have a free Amazon Prime account and so I dont pay for shipping. It's cheaper than our local supermarket and I don't have to shlep huge boxes of detergent.
-Why are you food shopping more than once a week? Fruits and veggies should last (use more delicate ones early in week, more hearty veggies towards the end. We freeze milk because CY is not always available, and cheeses last. Meat and poultry can be frozen. I would never attempt a huge shopping twice a week. The first shopping is done before shabbos because I want my stuff the freshest for us and company etc, and Monday -Thursday we use the rest of the veggies.
-Use videos and TV a little more. There is nothing wrong with a kid watching 30 - 60 minutes of TV (or Jewish videos, whatever) a day so you can do billing, phone calls or shower.
-Use the internet for shopping and get free shipping as often as you can to make it worth it. You dragged your SN needs kid to 3 store to get swim stuff, and then 3 more stores to get pekelach?? Of course he's fidgety! I rarely shop in stores, unless it is groceries or perishables. Bathing suits and summer stuff, Old Navy. House goods, toys, electronics, Amazon.
Yes, we have a car. But assuming that camp cost $200 a kid, per week, for my family to sent our kids to school for 8 weeks would be $3200. Assuming it costs slightly more or less than that depending on the amount of kids, cost of camp etc, that halfway to a semi decent car.
2 summers of that, and you could have a car for 5 years.
In our neighborhood a car is a non negotiable expense (very little in walking distance, no deliveries etc).
What about parking? In the city that is a MAJOR concern because of alternate side parking rules. Also we pay very high premiums for insurance. Also in the city since public transportation is so common many places don't have parking or the price is high for parking. the closest Target to MB and I cost $7 for 3 hours of parking. The aquarium cost $20 is parking.
The cost of insurance, tickets, car maintenance and a parking spot can be about 4-5K a year and thats not the cost of buying a car. So your view of a car is very suburban. Plus for women like MB who live I communities where women driving is frowned upon.
Also BTW what you consider a necessity, a CAR is considered a major luxury in the city. Should we call you spoiled?
-Use videos and TV a little more. There is nothing wrong with a kid watching 30 - 60 minutes of TV (or Jewish videos, whatever) a day so you can do billing, phone calls or shower.
.
You realize not every community allows kids to watch tv or videos, not everybody shares the same code of life as you do. So while the tips you offered suits your lifestyle and needs, it can't be incorporated into everyone else's.
I have no problem with dvds or tv when I need it but I understand others do.
#for the ppl who wouldnt use this I'd suggest getting toys that only come out on the occasions where the mother needs peace to keep them special and for the toys to be of the sort that the children can use by themselves and that wouldnt cause fighting between the kids
Update: Upsherin BH happend. We survived. BH. Whew. Now on to packing the rest of the house. We're all okay. yay .
Mazel tov! Must have been very strange for him, having all these people having at his hair; I assume he's seen enough upsherins himself to have some good feelings that "now it's my time."
May you see much nachas from your children!
Thanks .
1. He keeps putting his hand on his head looking for his hair / feeling the velcro-head. It's pretty cute.
2. He has never seen an upsherin and had no idea what was happening, but Bh his meltdowns werent as bad as I had anticipated and we got through the day okay.
3. amein thanks!
Lovemylife wrote:
Also Mama Bear - Camp discussion aside, I have some tips that might make your life more manageable:
-I get as much as I can bulk from Amazon (Toilet paper, cleaning supplies, cereals, paper towels etc) I have a free Amazon Prime account and so I dont pay for shipping. It's cheaper than our local supermarket and I don't have to shlep huge boxes of detergent.
-Why are you food shopping more than once a week? Fruits and veggies should last (use more delicate ones early in week, more hearty veggies towards the end. We freeze milk because CY is not always available, and cheeses last. Meat and poultry can be frozen. I would never attempt a huge shopping twice a week. The first shopping is done before shabbos because I want my stuff the freshest for us and company etc, and Monday -Thursday we use the rest of the veggies.
-Use videos and TV a little more. There is nothing wrong with a kid watching 30 - 60 minutes of TV (or Jewish videos, whatever) a day so you can do billing, phone calls or shower.
-Use the internet for shopping and get free shipping as often as you can to make it worth it. You dragged your SN needs kid to 3 store to get swim stuff, and then 3 more stores to get pekelach?? Of course he's fidgety! I rarely shop in stores, unless it is groceries or perishables. Bathing suits and summer stuff, Old Navy. House goods, toys, electronics, Amazon.
First of all my SN child watches uncle moishy most of the time that he's home.... but that doesnt stop him from raiding the freezer & crumbling food etc. also, the swim stuff I needed right then, right now, to take him to the sprinkler. there was no waiting around for amazon. The peklech thing: I admit, I was pretty overboard, esp considering the fact that we still have 2 boxes of peklech sitting around!!!!It's summer and NOBODY came up fo rpeklech except a couple of nieces. LOL. I guess I wanted to be as 'normal' as possible and have nice peklech. it was a dumb move.
in any case, BH BH BH my life is normalizing now. It had been a hard year and the past month was the worst.
chanchy123 wrote:
kitov wrote:
Mama Bear wrote:
Update: Upsherin BH happend. We survived. BH. Whew. Now on to packing the rest of the house. We're all okay. yay .
Mazel Tov, loads of nachas.
Moving tip:
Label, label, label EVERY box, write the contents on the box what is in the box.
Better moving tip. Label Label Label every box - but not with its content, number every box and catalogue it, preferably using excel (it is going to be so worth it when you unpack) also color code boxes going into different rooms and storage.
Do not forget your catalogue in the last box you sealed
pack a suitcase with essentials for your family (linen, clothes etc) for two nights, so you don't have to worry about unpacking everything the first couple of nights in your new home.
When you are packing try putting things from specific drawers/shelves into the same boxes, so when you take them out to put them away in your new house they will go in the same place (especially if you are going to be using the same furniture).
.
