I am in a different camp and I only agree partially. I belive a person doesn't need to plan too much - he needs to daven and do his hishtadlus at the time, and rely on Hakadosh Baruch Hu. We all (or at least most of us) see how we don't know what Hashem has planned for us and we need bitachon in Him.. People need to accept that if Hashem didn't give them the money for it, that means that He thinks they don't need a new car, or a vacation, or a silver chanukiah (menora). If you can cut down on other things, and save - that is a wonderful thing, especially if you are cutting down on gashmius luxuries for chinuch or hiddur mitzva.
OK, so what is a need? New glasses because the old ones are broken? If you don't have the money to replace does that mean G-d wants you to wear old glasses? I semi-agree with you in terms of realizing G-d is in charge, but if G-d is deciding because we aren't earning enough to pay for something that doesn't add up to G-d doesn't want us to have.
See I do agree one shouldn't be hiddur mitzvah on someone else's heshbone. But not everything is clear cut understandably need or not need.
Camp is one such, so is a new (to one) car/computer or even outfit (for work).
I don't think anyone should be asking for a silver menorah (or begging food so one can buy it) However, camp may or may not be a need...it is a very personal thing. To some it is a silver menorah. To others it is what can make the difference in their future lives and the life of the family.
Why did you cut out this part of my post?
Quote:
However, and this is the big however, that doesn't mean ignoring what you (don't) have in the bank/ your pocket. You need to live within your means (barring a real emergency which might need a loan or tzedaka) as you have them now.
Because that answers your question. Dental work, glasses to replace those that broke, school books etc. are (in my book) things that might need taking tzedaka. And, yes, camp in particular cases - where a child (or one of their siblings) has special needs, a sick parent, working parents etc. A car or computer might be essential for someone who needs it for his livelihood and will be even poorer without it. But for others it's a luxury.
FS wrote:
The first were the physically or mentally ill. At the time and in those places there were no health care facilities to care for such people or to give them the help that they would need so that they could become either physically or emotionally healthy. Today b"h we have such facilities. So that takes care of one group. A second group were those who were mentally...let's say...challenged. A generation ago they were called "retarted". Today we have different clinical names for the various groups but you get the idea. The third group were the "abandoned" whether on purpose or by disaster. Women whose husband left them, literally and then they and their children were destitute. Men whose wives died and left them with small children and for some reason they did not remarry (rare) and could not cope.
Why do you think these groups no longer need tzedaka?
The reality for many people with a sick family member in EY is that they do. It's not just health care facilities (especially as they have copays which quickly add up when you are poor). Usually one or both parents cannot work if they have a very sick spouse/ child who needs hospitalization/ outpatient treatments. Who looks after the other children? What about taxis, buying a sandwich in the hospital cafeteria for much more than it would cost to make yourself? etc. etc.
And widow(er)s/ divorcees (if the father isn't supporting) also have many other expenses to help a little to take the place of the missing spouse - someone to learn with older boys who don't have a father, lo alenu, help in the house especially if the sole parent is working, probably more babysitting expenses etc. Apart from extra counselling etc the child may need.
I am in a different camp and I only agree partially. I belive a person doesn't need to plan too much - he needs to daven and do his hishtadlus at the time, and rely on Hakadosh Baruch Hu. We all (or at least most of us) see how we don't know what Hashem has planned for us and we need bitachon in Him.. People need to accept that if Hashem didn't give them the money for it, that means that He thinks they don't need a new car, or a vacation, or a silver chanukiah (menora). If you can cut down on other things, and save - that is a wonderful thing, especially if you are cutting down on gashmius luxuries for chinuch or hiddur mitzva.
OK, so what is a need? New glasses because the old ones are broken? If you don't have the money to replace does that mean G-d wants you to wear old glasses? I semi-agree with you in terms of realizing G-d is in charge, but if G-d is deciding because we aren't earning enough to pay for something that doesn't add up to G-d doesn't want us to have.
See I do agree one shouldn't be hiddur mitzvah on someone else's heshbone. But not everything is clear cut understandably need or not need.
Camp is one such, so is a new (to one) car/computer or even outfit (for work).
I don't think anyone should be asking for a silver menorah (or begging food so one can buy it) However, camp may or may not be a need...it is a very personal thing. To some it is a silver menorah. To others it is what can make the difference in their future lives and the life of the family.
Why did you cut out this part of my post?
Quote:
However, and this is the big however, that doesn't mean ignoring what you (don't) have in the bank/ your pocket. You need to live within your means (barring a real emergency which might need a loan or tzedaka) as you have them now.
Because that answers your question. Dental work, glasses to replace those that broke, school books etc. are (in my book) things that might need taking tzedaka. And, yes, camp in particular cases - where a child (or one of their siblings) has special needs, a sick parent, working parents etc. A car or computer might be essential for someone who needs it for his livelihood and will be even poorer without it. But for others it's a luxury.
I guess I was agreeing with you more than disagreeing with you. The whole issue really is:
What counts as a luxury? and
How can I decide what someone else's luxury is?
(I didn't mean to cut you off. I wanted to discuss that particular idea.)
isnt it obvious, that if something is a luxury for you, then you clearly dont get how the person who feels that its a necessity feels.
To me sending my kids to camp would feel like a luxury so when someone comes and says that for her its a necessity then I believe her that for her she needs it and its not luxury. There are other things that are a necessity to me that I know for others seem like a luxury. I dont appreciate it when someone tells me I dont need something I feel like I need and that it isnt necessary because it is, to me.
When I give tzedokoh I am not gonna judge what they use it for, its not my place. The money wasnt mine to begin with and it seems like an awful thing to wonder if the ppl who receive tzedokoh uses the money right. Its not my business when its out of my hands and if you dont give tzedokoh to organsations that thelp ppl send their kids to camp, why fret over it, why care. Give your money elsewhere and accept that some ppl do get that its a necessity and are happy to give tzedokoh to fund camp.
chavs - because there are people out there who are truly desperate for help and have no other options, and there are people who are happy to take money from others when they don't need it, and part of the responsibility of anyone blessed to be in the position to give maaser is to give to group #1. Which by definition means not to group #2.
If you give to a reputable organization, you can trust them to make the call. Just so you know, those organizations don't usually use the standard you suggest of, "If they say they need it, they do." They look into each situation because otherwise they wouldn't have enough for those who need the most.
If you give independently, you need to be smart. Making sure it gets to the right address is part of your job.
All that is not to say that camp or glasses or whatever else is or isn't necessary - just arguing the idea that each person who wants money should be the only person deciding if they need it.
isnt it obvious, that if something is a luxury for you, then you clearly dont get how the person who feels that its a necessity feels.
To me sending my kids to camp would feel like a luxury so when someone comes and says that for her its a necessity then I believe her that for her she needs it and its not luxury. There are other things that are a necessity to me that I know for others seem like a luxury. I dont appreciate it when someone tells me I dont need something I feel like I need and that it isnt necessary because it is, to me.
When I give tzedokoh I am not gonna judge what they use it for, its not my place. The money wasnt mine to begin with and it seems like an awful thing to wonder if the ppl who receive tzedokoh uses the money right. Its not my business when its out of my hands and if you dont give tzedokoh to organsations that thelp ppl send their kids to camp, why fret over it, why care. Give your money elsewhere and accept that some ppl do get that its a necessity and are happy to give tzedokoh to fund camp.
What ora said.
And also that, like you said, your maaser money isn't yours, which means you need to make sure to give it to a worthy tzedaka. Not to Save the Whale. Not to help fund flotillas to Gaza (they will also tell you it's a very worthy cause). Not to your local church. And not to the nice Jewish lady who tells you she will die if she doesn't get a new dining room table to replace the scratched one she has already, when there are Jewish children down the road who don't have enough to eat or chicken for Shabbos or the books they need for school.
If someone thinks luxuries are neccessities and she wants tzedaka money to buy them with, you would do her a favour to educate her about the facts of life.
(Although I would agree with you on grey areas, for example, a woman who says she really needs a cleaner for her mental/physical health, assuming she generally understands what a luxury is.)
Shal of course those groups continue to exist but in very different proportions. Today the mentally and emotionally ill can be treated and given life skills and work skills. Much more at least than they could 200 years ago. The abandoned don't exist in droves as they did when men were leaving their wives as agunos and going to America, at least not in those numbers or proportions. And while of course illness continues to exist, some of the illnesses that used to be debilitating and life threatening can be treated and cured to the point where people can support themselves.
And as for the other cases, of course one gives zedoko for illness or sudden issues, but that's exactly what we are discussing here. First, planning. very often responsible people when they have a drop of money actually save it in a fund for such emergencies even if it means that they scrimp when they really wouldn't have to because at that moment they DO have the money, however it is being saved. But that requires a kind of planning that some people, particularly those used to living off charity, community or "others" don't have because they feel that if something comes up, the Israeli mentality of "smolk", there will always be someone else to pay that bill for them.
Necessity versus luxury. When someone is paying for their own things they have the right to make that decision. But when they are asking for it from others and it isn't an across the board necessity like the real basics that no one will argue about (think basic food, water, basic shelter, basic education, etc) then it really does become a matter of discussion. Why? Simply because we ARENT usually talking about a one time thing. This isn't a discussion about the case of a family which could always support itself and made careful decisions and planned to be self sustaining but then disaster in whatever form hit. These are once again cases of people living in never-never land where they want X but don't plan for it and then count on others to cover it. In my book and that of many others that's not the definiton of zedoko. That's a lifestyle of poverty sustained by charity.
What would happen if such people would only be given the minimum charity so that they wouldn't starve? Would some of them get off their duff and finally begin to make some serious calculations in life as to how to get what they want without stretching out their hands for alms? Could this be a way to keep them from perpatuating a parasitical situation? Yeah sounds ugly doesn't it? But in truth that's what it is if it is a continuous process that didn't come from some disaster.
Sure, these people plan. They plan to live on zedoko. Milechaschilo. And in my book, I don't give to such people because there isn't enough money to go around and I prefer as do many to give to those who at least tried to be self sustaining even if it didn't work out. Or, as Shal or someone wrote, to the mentally ill, the physically ill and those where it is obvious that they can't do anything about their situation.
As for the others? Today my husband two me that two healthy 16 year old charedi kids came to his very DL minyan asking for handouts. Some gave but others were a bit shocked and didn't. My husband said that the consensus was "boychik get off your duff and go get a job if you want money."
Necessity - camp? For a healthy SAHM with healthy kids who claims that her kids run her ragged? If she wants to send them and can afford to pay, geh gezint. But to ask for charity for it saying she can't cope? Why does she live in a never never land in which she thinks that SAHMs dont run themselves ragged? that's what raising kids is all about...you don't have the strength? Plan your family. You don't believe in family planning or spacing? Then don't expect me to save your derriere from running around.
Yesterday in Meron a sweet looking young woman pushing a baby carriage came up to me asking for money for shabbos. I gave her but would have liked to know the story. Why doesn't she have money for food for shabbos? She looked quite health as did her little boy or girl. Why can't she care for another child as a metapelet along with her baby and make some money instead of begging? Because it is easier to beg?
Someone once said that a lot of horror entered this world because people lost their shame in front of the Almightly. They then began to kill easier, maim easier etc. That was about non jews. But about yidden one can claim that the minute one takes zedoko as a norm and something to justify instead of being ashamed of, one stops trying to change the situation for which one is getting zedoko.
In some cases I would say this definitely applies.
Last edited by freidasima on Fri, Jul 08 2011, 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total
"Not PC" - it depends where. My parents didn't always know exactly where I was as a teen. Some summers, they knew which state I'd gone to with a youth group but not much more than that.
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There are organisations that give tzedokoh to ppl who need it but once the money has been given its up to the individual it was given to to decide what to do with it. If a family would rather use the money for camp then vegetables for example then I'd assume that this is what they felt they needed the money for.
The reputable organisations I know dont ask what you use it for and dont say that you mustnt use the money for things other then food or mortgage/rent.
I give to organisations like these and I know ppl who receive tzedokoh from them and sometimes they do things I cant afford for example but it wouldnt cross my mind to judge what they use it for, its not my business. I fppl who receive the money go on holiday or has a cleaner or gets new shoes often, its not my business. Why should it be.
Most of my tzedokoh goes to organisatons as it happens.
I have actually spoken to the person who runs it who says that for the most part you wouldnt know that the ppl recieving the money need tzedokoh because outwardly you wouldnt know it. To me this is lesson number one in not judgng because you dont know what goes on in someone elses home.
When I give to an individual(which isnt often because I rarely meet any individual who asks) I know that I dont know what they use the money for and that if I choose to give its out of my hands. Any way most of the individuals in England who ask for money go through proper channels to get a certificate so they can prove that they are genuine.
When I hear someone saying they need camp I believe them, I do and I hope they get the help they need. Why should I judge what someone says they need.
Chavs that's really dangerous
That's like saying that once a family gets welfare money they know what they need and if they decide to buy a 64 inch TV with it instead of food for their children....that's what they need.
No. I do NOT trust some families. Simply because they don't have judgement as I see it. Because some of those same families dug all by themselves the hole that they are in in the first place by making really bad decisions including about what is a necessity and what is not.
I forgot to add that I remember learning that when giving tzedokoh it is a mitzvah to give so the person can have what they are accustomed to.
Take that as you want, I am sure you've all heard it before. I am not sure if it pertains to this but it might.
Why is it dangerous. its one of the biggest organisations in London and ppl get what they need and can actually use the money as they see fit. For most ppl its demeaning enough to receive tzedokoh without being told what to do with it and being questioned about what they do with it.
If you have an issue with how its run, take it up with the founders. Its well respected and works well and not just something I am saying. Nothing dangerous in it. Ppl dont have to leave their dignity at the door when they get they money.
To me your attitude is dangerous because if it was run like it sounds you'd like it to be then ppl mght be scred of askng for help which they shoulndt be. There is nothing shhameful about needing money and if someone has cleaning help, I'd assume they need it, even if I dont.
True, that's the din but also one must add that only when what they were accustomed to was gotten gainfully.
Meaning if they were living high on the hog (pardon the expression) on yennem's gelt (someone elses money) you don't have to give them zedoko to continue living like that. Meaning if they are living as they do because they are already living off some form of charity, borrowing or the public kupa and not paying for it themselves...they I was taught that by din you do not have to support them to that level at all. Only if they were there by paying for it totally by themselves, legally and fairly.
Also there is a question if there is enough money to go around in general for zedoko. If there isn't, a person definitely has the right to decide whether he/she agrees with a certain person's lifestyle and if not, they can use their money to support someone else
Of course you have the right to decide WHERE you are giving tzeddakah, but asking shouldn't be a crime. Everyone has to make a decision based on how much they have and where they think their money will be most effective.
FS then dont give to organisations like the one I said, but I dont think that asking how ppl use their money is right or making stipulations on what they can use it for.
IF they are receiving from a reputable organisation then dont look at how the ppl receiving are using the money or dont give to this organisatiton. Its not fair to look and judge at how ppl use their money whether or not its their salary from their work or got it through tzedokoh.
The point is that its not nice to sit and judge who needs what and why. If you dont think camp is a worthy cause give elsewhere to what you think is a good cause but dont judge others who are happy to give to ppl who might use the money for camp or for the ppl receiving it.
The way I see it is that b-H I dont know how they feel. I have my own issues and they are enough for me but I can still sympathise even if I dont understand and I certainly dont need to judge ppl on wha they need or feel that they need.
Chavs while in principle what you say sounds good in practice it doesn't work.
Why?
Because you can have an organization with great hype which misrepresents situations and therefore lots of people give, but the causes are those which if people knew all the truth about, they would realize that it was not something that people agreed with across the board (let's say subsidized camps for anyone who asks claiming that they need without checking because the organization is going under your premise), while another organization without the hype which gives to causes which everyone would agree with across the board (let's say giving basic meals at an orphanage) won't get that money.
That means that by an organization not asking how one spends one's money or people not making the organization ask, there will be people who will get who really don't need on an absolute scale while other people (think the orphans going hungry at that orphanage) will not get because there isn't enough money to go around and the orgs with the great hype get the money.
I fear organizations where more than a certain percentage of their budget goes for advertising for example. I also fear organizations which don't ask straight out what the person is gonig to use the money for, just for that reason. It's a fine line to walk but as we live in a generation where people have lost any shame about putting out their hands to take, the question has to be asked.
It, like many other things, is unfortunately a generational thing. This time not having to do with the generation of the posters but the face that we live in a generation without shame.
They dont ask how ppl spend their money but you do have to fill out a form where you put down your monthly bills and income and they many times refer ppl to their financial advicer. You have to fill out the form every year or twice a year as well
Once the money has passed to they dont questions what you do with it though.
"Not PC" - it depends where. My parents didn't always know exactly where I was as a teen. Some summers, they knew which state I'd gone to with a youth group but not much more than that.
/quote]
As a teen....
Yes. This was in response to Isramom, who was responding to something FS said about teenagers.
When I was a kid we didn't have cell phones, as Tamiri said.
