Btw: My friend the volunteer who took my son yesterday for an hour called me and said iwth amazement: How do you have the koach to chase after him all day? Ive been doing it for an hour and am absolutely exhausted!
my answer was.... I dont! I simply dont have the koach. that's all.
Off to delete all my posts, as I'm so upset I'm sitting here and crying. what a waste of my morning.
Firstly, MB is including appointments in her errands. Secondly, for whatever reason, she has more duties that take her outside the house.
Most routine shopping can be done on our Yishuv. There is a clothing gemach, there is a hardware store, there is a grocery store, basic health care. The "mall" is a bus ride away (groceries cheaper than the makolet, clothing store, I shoe store, hardware store, pizza shop, and more health care than one can get on the Yishuv. Jerusalem, where everything can be got is 30-hr away depending on traffic. NOT much different than in the city honestly, or Boro Park.
Actually that means Seraph has to shlepp more for errands, appointments etc since she doesn't live in the city.
Yea, the only errands I physically CAN run on the yishuv are going to the hardware store (a 7 minute walk pushing a stroller up a big hill), going to the makolet (a 10 minute walk up an even bigger hill pushing a stroller), paying my yishuv taxes (right next to the makolet), going to the park (fortunately only a 2 to a 10 minute walk, depending on which park I chose), and going to one of 3 available doctors (a nice 30 minute walk, approximately one mile, pushing a heavy stroller, up a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge hill).
Oh, and checking my mail, a nice 10 minute walk up a big hill...
Anything else that needs to be done? Any clothes shopping? Any grocery shopping (I don't usually use the makolet, I go to a cheaper store farther away)? Any pharmacy or household equipment I need? Any electronics? Any dealing in person with phone issues or tax issues or whatever? Any purchasing paper goods? Any doctor other than the 3 on the yishuv a 30 minute walk away? The dentist? All at least a bus ride away, between 20 minutes by bus (5 minute walk down a steep rocky path pushing a stroller to get to the bus stop in the first place) and an hour by bus....
Yea, if anything, yishuv life makes running errands MUCH harder.
Btw: My friend the volunteer who took my son yesterday for an hour called me and said iwth amazement: How do you have the koach to chase after him all day? Ive been doing it for an hour and am absolutely exhausted!
my answer was.... I dont! I simply dont have the koach. that's all.
Off to delete all my posts, as I'm so upset I'm sitting here and crying. what a waste of my morning.
Some children are more exhausting than others. My kids, with the exception of one, were full of energy, so much so that when one mom told me her kids were very energetic, beware, I found them less energetic than my crew; they were a snap. These were kids other moms had said they couldn't handle.
Mama Bear: STOP!!!! Stop farentferring yourself and feeding posters who will NEVER understand your lifestyle, your challenges and your setting. With every detail you offer, there will be posters with great reasoning why it isn't so bad....
And yes, I agree, yishuv life IS laid back. Not in terms of errands, that I agree is tougher with everything out of reach. But there are definitely fewer errands, less things to erledig. And I know this firsthand, so don't just dismiss this claim by calling me a chutznik.
And yes, I agree, yishuv life IS laid back. Not in terms of errands, that I agree is tougher with everything out of reach. But there are definitely fewer errands, less things to erledig. And I know this firsthand, so don't just dismiss this claim by calling me a chutznik.
Explain what you mean then? Won't dismiss it.
The only way its more laid back is less horn honking and less traffic.
What do you mean less things to do? All the school stuff (if you have kids in school) still need to be done. All therapy stuff need to be done, but its usually a bus ride away. All simchas need to be gone to, and again, its usually a big shlep away by bus. All presents to be bought, a bus ride away. Why would fewer things need to be done because of living on a yishuv?
And yes, I agree, yishuv life IS laid back. Not in terms of errands, that I agree is tougher with everything out of reach. But there are definitely fewer errands, less things to erledig. And I know this firsthand, so don't just dismiss this claim by calling me a chutznik.
Explain what you mean then? Won't dismiss it.
The only way its more laid back is less horn honking and less traffic.
And less furnished apartments so less cleaning to do, less questionable elements on the street so more unsupervised kiddie play on the streets, almost all houses are flats so less exhausting stair climbing to do, smaller population so less simchas to attend and prepare for and get ready for, fewer school hours so fewer homework and less tasks for a mother, and on and on.
Mama Bear, most people cannot understand how raising a child who has special needs can impact everyday life. Try the special needs section here, or Yahoo's specialfrummoms.
And yes, I agree, yishuv life IS laid back. Not in terms of errands, that I agree is tougher with everything out of reach. But there are definitely fewer errands, less things to erledig. And I know this firsthand, so don't just dismiss this claim by calling me a chutznik.
Explain what you mean then? Won't dismiss it.
The only way its more laid back is less horn honking and less traffic.
What do you mean less things to do? All the school stuff (if you have kids in school) still need to be done. All therapy stuff need to be done, but its usually a bus ride away. All simchas need to be gone to, and again, its usually a big shlep away by bus. All presents to be bought, a bus ride away. Why would fewer things need to be done because of living on a yishuv?
Another thing, even if an American city mother would have the exact identical life situation than an Israeli yishuv mother, I believe the coping skills of Mrs. Yishuv would be better than Mrs. City. There's harchovos hadaas in an airy, stone built, Israeli flat, surrounded by quiet fields, regardless of the condition of the apartment, versus the wooden, top floor cubicle aka apt itn the city with noisy streets and honking horns below and where fresh air means a breeze created by a passing truck.
Last edited by kitov on Thu, Jul 07 2011, 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
I seriously fail to see why you're still posting here. I've followed the thread, and I get the feeling that after all the talk about the mitzvah of living in EY, which I'm not negating, some people here seem to be under the impression that once they live there, all the others mitzvahs are optional. Like for instance, giving people the benefit of the doubt and realizing that people's strength vary and their kochos hanefesh on how to accept any challenge -large or small- are not all exactly on their level. Or, that the internet is public, and constantly trying to convince you of the awful, horrible, nebachdig way you're running your life, is ok. Because not being mevayash a person is also optional.
And I wonder which time of the year Yom Kippur falls out there. I hope they still remember this thread then.
THEY REFUSE TO SEE IT YOUR WAY.
Whether they are right in theory or not, this is the way you and your life is, and it's time to move on.
Thanks zahava.... funnily enough your post has made me cry in a way none of the other posts did. A little kindness really goes a long way.
I'm through with this discussion. Time to start packing my first box for the big move.
Gshabbos all. and dont anyone dare resurrect the discussion; My life is not open for brutal critique. Pm me if you really want to understand. Which I dont think any of you really want to.
Barbara, what you wrote about different worldviews is interesting. I have found Americans to have more of a planning mindset than Israelis - maybe because in Israel the situation often changes instantly from relative peace to war, and for many Israelis, money seems to suddenly be there, or not, dependent partly on whether the shekel is weaker or stronger. Maybe Israelis are generally more dependent on a laid back kind of bitachon. It's an interesting point.
Fox, I also appreciate your perspective about thinking of camp as an essential because for decades rabbanim have been claiming it is. That probably influenced me in some way.
Regarding special needs: I know that no one denied the need for these kids to go to camp. I just want to stress how essential it is for the kid and his or her family. My son with behavioral issues is in an expensive sleepaway camp in the US. It's amazing for him. You cannot imagine the diffence between that and staying home, and I refuse to go into detail!
Last edited by Isramom8 on Thu, Jul 07 2011, 1:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
Mama Bear, most people cannot understand how raising a child who has special needs can impact everyday life. Try the special needs section here, or Yahoo's specialfrummoms.
Actually, I don't think that's it.
I think that people genuinely care, and are genuinely trying to help organizing and consolidating chores and errands, which could potentially make MB's life less stressful. But they probably shouldn't, because MB hasn't asked for help, and doesn't really seem to want (or perhaps need) help. Rather like the weight loss thread. People may have great ideas (or not). But its intrusive if you're not asked to comment.
All *I* will say is that I don't think that MB's schedule can be taken as typical of a Brooklyn mother (which is what I thought she was claiming) for the very reasons she's shared -- she's in the middle of moving, planning an upsherin, and has a child with special needs.
Barbara what made me very very upset was amother's nasty post a page or two back about how a few errands and phone calls shouldnt be such a big deal.... I shouldnt ahve taken her bait. My limitations, life issues, and circumstances arent the norm, and her post was very hurtful. The more I tried to explain myself the worse it got, with other ppl jumping on the bandwagon.
My errand load wasnt 1/10th of this before my son was diagnosed with special needs. Life was really dandy and calm back then...
I was just expplaining myself to her, which was a mistake.
And yes, I agree, yishuv life IS laid back. Not in terms of errands, that I agree is tougher with everything out of reach. But there are definitely fewer errands, less things to erledig. And I know this firsthand, so don't just dismiss this claim by calling me a chutznik.
Explain what you mean then? Won't dismiss it.
The only way its more laid back is less horn honking and less traffic.
And less furnished apartments so less cleaning to do,
Not sure what that is supposed to mean. My neighbors here have 2-3 floor houses, with lots of furnishing, taking lots of time to clean.
Quote:
less questionable elements on the street so more unsupervised kiddie play on the streets,
I wish. Perhaps yishuvim used to be like that, but definitely not anymore, at least not where I live. Where I live there have been rapists, child molesters, drug dealing, vandalism, arson, robberies, etc... Anyone who leaves their kids unattended to play is naively stupid, and Hashem should watch over their kids.
Quote:
almost all houses are flats so less exhausting stair climbing to do,
Unless you live in a chareidi yishuv where its all apartment buildings, some 10 stories high, all walk up...
Quote:
smaller population so less simchas to attend and prepare for and get ready for
Or rather your friends are more spread out, so you have to travel much further to simchas,
Quote:
fewer school hours so fewer homework and less tasks for a mother, and on and on.
And more hours where the kids are home, fewer hours for mom to get things done without kids around...
And yes, I agree, yishuv life IS laid back. Not in terms of errands, that I agree is tougher with everything out of reach. But there are definitely fewer errands, less things to erledig. And I know this firsthand, so don't just dismiss this claim by calling me a chutznik.
Explain what you mean then? Won't dismiss it.
The only way its more laid back is less horn honking and less traffic.
What do you mean less things to do? All the school stuff (if you have kids in school) still need to be done. All therapy stuff need to be done, but its usually a bus ride away. All simchas need to be gone to, and again, its usually a big shlep away by bus. All presents to be bought, a bus ride away. Why would fewer things need to be done because of living on a yishuv?
Another thing, even if an American city mother would have the exact identical life situation than an Israeli yishuv mother, I believe the coping skills of Mrs. Yishuv would be better than Mrs. City. There's harchovos hadaas in an airy, stone built, Israeli flat, surrounded by quiet fields, regardless of the condition of the apartment, versus the wooden, top floor cubicle aka apt itn the city with noisy streets and honking horns below and where fresh air means a breeze created by a passing truck.
Possibly. Yishuv hadaas helps somewhat, but then again, theres the fear or terror attacks or pinuyim, so that minimizes the yishuv hadaas.
Wow a lot has happened since I checked in last night - busy day and check it out on a thread I'm about to start because all of you are connected to it...
I'm not going into the MamaBear arguments which I see are mostly deleted, and I wish you hatzlocho in your move. Also one small piece of advice. If you actually WILL have some time to call your own with the boys in school make one investment in yourself. Book one or two sessions with a professional time management expert. Seriously. See what she can suggest in your streamlining your life. They can be of tremendous help, as there are things that everyone can learn, tricks, streamlining, etc. even for people with SN children and cholilo with much worse. For people for whom time management or organization doesn't come naturally, they can be incredibly helpful and even if you only pick up one or two tips which are applicable, sometimes those tips can be lifesavers. Consider giving yourself this as a present for your birthday. I've seen people helped tremendously and we all have what to learn in the topic, even the super organized!
I want to comment on Isramom and Barbara's notes on planning for the future and world outlook.
Barbara I agree in full. I think that in many things you and I share a similar world outlook and therefore I ascribe to all that you are saying. Yes, there is a big Jewish world that may trust in Hashem but plans for the future, as my father taught me "Betach beHashem VeAseh Tov". Trust in the Almightly but do good, meaning if you just sit and trust in the Almighty, you get nowhere in many many cases. That's a chosid shoteh, a fool, who just says "Hashem will provide" or like the joke of the new son in law meeting with his shver who comes home to his wife and sighs, I have good news and bad news after meeting with the Chossen. The bad news is that he isn't planning to get a job or ever work and keeps saying "G-d will provide". And the good news? "he obviously thinks I'm G-d!"
Back to topic.
I know many Israelis who plan, it just depends who they are. I find many charedim who plan long term in terms of starting to put away money for their children's apartments when they are born because in the charedi world one HAS to buy an apartment usually as part of a shidduch, while other topics are negotiable. I find many DL who plan long term in finances, professional planning and the like. I find many chilonim who plan long term on similar subjects. And some still put aside money for kids apartments as well.
Isramom I think you may be a bit overinfluenced by your charedi-American kehilla. I don't know too many Israelis whose planning or daily life is influenced by whether the shekel is stronger or weaker. They live on shekels not dollars, their investments are shekels but they don't live on their investments. The things they buy are in shekel and the fluctuations of the dollar don't affect their mortgage or much anything in their daily lives.
And as for MO/DL families, I agree in full a few pages back with whomever said that there are many who have 5+ children and in the cities as well. And yes we care about creating a sustainable Jewish people long past our lifetime, isn't that obvious? Some of the ideas here are at least to me indicative of a very unsustainable Jewish people...
One last thing. Regarding the comparison that I brought to the ghettos of the holocaust and having children then - there were many, yes MANY choshuver rabbonim who told couples that they were marrying in the ghettos to do everything NOT to bring children into the world during that time because of the dangers and the uncertainty. The statement made over and over was that if the Ribono Shel Olam will let you get through this terrible time, then there will be time enough to have children. But that there is no mitzva to bring a child into the world that can endanger others, the rationale being that an infant would endanger a family under such circumstances by its very existence - it would take away the little food there was (mothers would need to eat more to nurse) and it would keep the parents from being able to flee if there was a chance to escape.
Without comparing, if rabbonim said that then, choshuver chassidishe and non chassidishe rabbonim in Poland, then there is no chiyuv, at least according to them, to have children no matter when no matter what and as many as possible.
Last time I looked a this thread it was 10 pages shorter I think and I only skimmed it then. I've read a few pages back now.
I dont understand how anyone can judge someone else and say how easy or hard their life should be based on your own life and your own experiences. I am home schooling, so I dont get much a of a break from my kids (obvouosly) I dont have a cleaner, I make my own bread, yoghurt, have chickens for our own eggs etc. etc.
How would this entitle me to say that someone else should be able to handle or cope with what I am coping with or dealing with? Someone else might have a cleaner and have kids in school and have one child instead of 2 but their life could still be more stressful for them then my life is to me. This doesnt mean they are weaker or manage their time worse then I do, it means they are different. They have strengths that I do not have and have hardships I dont have. How could I Chava (chavs to you) say that Mamabear or anyone else *should* manage better? I am not her! Unless you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes and have had their life and the kochos H-shem gave them then you cant judge.
Why is it a competition in who has it the hardest and who is coping best with their lot? Are you ppl so in need of validation that you need to put someone else down to feel good? Think about how you make others feel.
I am sure living in Israel is hard, I am sure living in America is hard, its all hard, everyone have their own nisiyonos that other ppl cant possibly understand. Why does anyone feel the need to say, I live in such and such a place and thats hard and then someone else will come and say, well not as hard as where I live because we dont have (insert whatever). Please, get over it, it isnt a contest.
You all have it hard, no need to point out why your pekel is harder.
As to the anonymous amother, how despicable to judge someone and be so mean and not even have the decency to do it face to face so to speak. You are hiding under anonymity and think you can be cruel and demeaning because no one will know who you are! You ought to apologise for the hurt you caused Mamabear and anyone else who has a hard time whether or not you'd cope like a "champ" (a real champ who feels the need to put someone else down-please!) and feels less as a result of you.
To mamabear and anyone else who can admit that you are having a hard time. You are brave and you are dong great, you dont need to get others to understand, you dont need their understanding. Some ppl will never get it. Its ok that you are having a hard time and that life is hard. I dont mean that its ok that life has dealt you such a hand, I mean that its ok for you to not find it easy. It isnt easy and there is nothing wrong with you for dealing with it the way you are. You sound like you are dealing very well btw despite of how hard it is.
I hope this is coming out like I mean it to come out. Dont feel bad and dont let others tell you that you are not doing good, you are. Dont answer them either as others said, they are not worth it!
.)
