chavs -
It's dangerous to just give money without making sure there's not more to the problem. If someone is in a situation where they don't even have money for food, for example, it's worthwhile for someone to check that the situation is under control and it's just one of those things that can happen (eg. a parent is sick, or out of work long-term) not a situation of abusive/neglectful parents who won't go out to work even if their kids are going hungry, or who will use the money on luxuries for themselves instead of on the children.
If you have an organization that gives money to a couple where both parents are alcoholics using the money they get to buy vodka instead of using it for bread and vegetables for the children, for instance, that's a problem.
I guess you could say that giving money in and of itself isn't dangerous, the dangerous part is the lack of follow-up. But in some cases even giving money can be dangerous, if there's a problem of addiction or of child abuse (because people might keep the kids around just to keep getting money - BH rare but it does happen).
Most organizations in Israel that give to people of a certain income level without looking over their shoulders to see what they are buying, give food or clothing or formula or gift certificates or a bunch of other things that aren't cash. The only time I've heard of an organization giving cash is when it's a small fund run locally, but in a case like that the rav and whoever else is in charge sees what's going on and can very quickly weed out anyone who's using the money to buy things other families in the community can't afford.
Just like many other things we discuss time and time again, it all boils down to a sense of entitlement.
Today's kids are really spoiled. True, the world is very different now then when I was a kid, but luxuries that I have now, in my 40's, are things that my daughter has had since she was a teenager.
CM the question is also whether general norms and values have changed. In order to get something she wanted my mother had to work for it, so did I and so do my children.
In my family, in the home I grew up and in my parent's parental homes children did not pay for education or health care. Health care only when they married, and basic education (BA) by parents. Usually when you got higher degrees you were married so that's already different. My mother started an MA but didn't finish, my MA didn't cost and we are paying for all our kids higher education even after marriage.
In terms of gadgets, it's easy to say that you only got your cellphone at 35 when your daughter gets it at ten. But hey, when we were ten there WERENT any cells...so then you get to the argument that my mother used to use that in her day a boy got his first watch for bar mitzva and in my day little boys in first grade had a wristwatch...until my father pointed out that the costs were so different that you couldn't compare...in my parents day a wristwatch was a highly tuned expensive item while when I was a child you could buy a cheap one for a few dollars and today at a knock off store for two dollars! And $10 for a wristwatch in 1935...that's like $500 today and no one buys a first grader a $500 watch (do they?!)
So...it's all relative and it doesn't mean that the kids have it that much different "proportionally" although on the absolute scale it might look like it...
"Not PC" - it depends where. My parents didn't always know exactly where I was as a teen. Some summers, they knew which state I'd gone to with a youth group but not much more than that.
/quote]
As a teen....
Yes. This was in response to Isramom, who was responding to something FS said about teenagers.
When I was a kid we didn't have cell phones, as Tamiri said.
So are you saying that since we have cell phones we can give one to an 8 or 9 y.o. and let them play for hours? I'm still not comfortable with that. I'd have to know a few more details and give them fairly set parameters, e.g. you'll be at house x, y, or z, or else you call me, before letting them go out.
I mean, like, my daughter knew what Victoria's Secret was and went with her friend to buy makeup there since her early teenage years. That she's been waxing her eyebrows since that age as well. Stuff like that.
Stuff that I didn't even think about, until I was 40 plus.
I mean, like, my daughter knew what Victoria's Secret was and went with her friend to buy makeup there since her early teenage years. That she's been waxing her eyebrows since that age as well. Stuff like that.
Stuff that I didn't even think about, until I was 40 plus.
that is completely a personality thing. Your dd might end up with a daughter who couldn't care less about eyebrow waxing and victorias secret, but would rather go and read or do science projects or play sports or whatever.
Whether its dangerous or not what the organisations in the UK, that are backed by all the big rabbonim and have professionals in different capacity on the staff as well, are doing it still doesnt change the fact that some ppl might still need or feelt hat they need things that you dont think they need and that because you dont get it, it is still valid. Let not kid ourselves, you are not that concerned with the tzedokoh organisations if you were you'd leave your computer and call them to discuss it or you'd simply choose to give elsewhere if you didnt agree wit their methods. The real problem here is that you have an issue with other ppl that you think are spoiled and it bothers you, because you feel that they are wrong and that they dont need the things that you never needed. If this is not the case then you could try t make tha clear because to me this is how you come across and I am saying this with all due respect but I want to express how you sound to me and possibly to others, this is all I am saying. If it has come over rude, I apologise in advance.
Its funny that whenever I write about somthing that's 'omg not fathomable' to me it comes back to bite me in the butt . Today mendy's therapist is out sick so he had to stay home. Shimie was home by 11:30. And I'm packing! And I'm surviving! Probably bcz my husband will be home at 2 iyh and my cleaning help is here, and I have no errands or appts or phone calls etc today, just stuff arond the house. So... I'm managing fine... a month ago I probably woudlve freaked out to have him for 3 hours. after he was out every day til 6 pm he's happy to be home and BH not destroying anything. and he said a few basic sounds in context today so I'm in a better mood... So why am I writing this? I donno, I guess just because I wanted to try tempering the image of an imbalimpert balabuste here...
Its funny that whenever I write about somthing that's 'omg not fathomable' to me it comes back to bite me in the butt . Today mendy's therapist is out sick so he had to stay home. Shimie was home by 11:30. And I'm packing! And I'm surviving! Probably bcz my husband will be home at 2 iyh and my cleaning help is here, and I have no errands or appts or phone calls etc today, just stuff arond the house. So... I'm managing fine... a month ago I probably woudlve freaked out to have him for 3 hours. after he was out every day til 6 pm he's happy to be home and BH not destroying anything. and he said a few basic sounds in context today so I'm in a better mood... So why am I writing this? I donno, I guess just because I wanted to try tempering the image of an imbalimpert balabuste here...
HEY. WTG Mendy! May he continue to move from strength to strength.
Its funny that whenever I write about somthing that's 'omg not fathomable' to me it comes back to bite me in the butt . Today mendy's therapist is out sick so he had to stay home. Shimie was home by 11:30. And I'm packing! And I'm surviving! Probably bcz my husband will be home at 2 iyh and my cleaning help is here, and I have no errands or appts or phone calls etc today, just stuff arond the house. So... I'm managing fine... a month ago I probably woudlve freaked out to have him for 3 hours. after he was out every day til 6 pm he's happy to be home and BH not destroying anything. and he said a few basic sounds in context today so I'm in a better mood... So why am I writing this? I donno, I guess just because I wanted to try tempering the image of an imbalimpert balabuste here...
Because you didn't have the goats and the chickens and the MIL in the house ;-)
I'm not sure what imbalimpert means. Sounds like something in the Lipa song (or The Lion Sleeps Tonight) - imba limpert imba limpert
Chavs was that post of yours meant for me? Or for Ora? Whatever, but I can tell you from experience that the fact that an organization has chushuver rabbonim listed on its website or on its kol korehs etc. doesn't mean that they actually do anything with the nitty gritty or check things out. Again this is from experience from so many people coming around here with haskomos from X Y and Z rabbonim asking for zedoko and turns out that the rabbonim never gave their names....this has been exposed again and again and again.
Therefore many of us, especially here, have learned to be wary.
We are also wary of people who have made a lifestyle out of living off charity, especially from the DLs and especially from the middle class DLs who are always thought of as being willing to give, and a lot, without asking too many questions. So many such people show up at our shul every morning to schnorr, they are all charedi, and the general feeling in many cases as my husband has said, is that they are able bodied young men why aren't they going out to work?! Why are they spending their mornings going from shul to shul or whatever and shnorring at 7, 8 and 9 AM? And some of them come with pages of haskomos or whatever from rabbonim saying that they are destitute, and they are there EVERY SINGLE MORNING! Do these rabbonim REALLY check out each and every case? They are so many that they are signed on, these big rabbonim, that it would really be impossible to do that...
So sorry, I am VERY wary of organization unless I know that they really do check out what is being done with the money that is given to families because we, like many others, have been burned and in addition even the papers (frum and frei) are full of stories that my our blood boil....along with the stories of real cases where people are destitute due to illness, disaster, etc. but not by "choice" and need money which we and many others are happy to give.
chavs I really don't understand what you're saying. Could you reword?
It seems you're offended by what I've said about tzedakah organizations? I'm not questioning what's done in England, I have no idea what's done in England. I'm not going to call to question them about it because I have no grounds to do so, and in any case, if they have experts involved, I doubt they need my opinion (I do wonder, though, why they have professionals involved if it's as simple as giving money to anyone with a low income - could it be that there's more support/oversight going on than that?).
I'm just saying that if things in England are as you describe, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a universal approach to tzedaka. As I said, the only groups that give out cash here do have a degree of oversight.
I don't get how or why you're making the jump from "it's unwise to give tzedaka money to anyone who asks without figuring out more or less what they're using it for" to "if I don't need something, nobody else does either." I said the former, not the latter. They are two very different arguments.
There is not a single person on this thread who has said that camp - or anything else, for that matter - is never a need. The OP was frustrated that people were portraying it as always a need, as were those who agreed with her. Again, a very different argument.
I am sitting here trying to remember if I intended my last post to anyone specific or as a klal. truth is I dont remember.
I'll try to make myself clear.
To get the nitty gritty out of the way that this conversation isnt neccesarily about.
I am not offended on behalf of the organisation, I think that you (plural to anyone who is going to say it is a dangerous approach) saying it is a wrong approach are talking about something you have no idea. You have no idea other then what I told you about this organisation and you dont know how it works. You are judging it based on your own experiences in another country where the organisations work differently so saying that they are doing it wrong or that they have a dangerous approach is making a statement based on something you know little of and is imho a bit hasty and judgemental to do.
Each case is judged differently and as I said here are a host of ppl involved in running it. I specifically said that there arent only rabbonim running it so but other professionals who try to help ppl out of their difficulties. For some reason I feel that this was ignored and the only comment about the ppl who work there was about the rabbonim. Anyways, there are ppl who work for them who try to help ppl deal witht their credit card problems there are ppl who try to help ppl with managing budgeting and so on and so forth. I also mentioned that ppl recieving tzedokkoh have to answer a hos tof quesons about their monthly income and their bills, mortgage/rent, loans, credit cards.
If someone had an alcohol problem and lets say they spend all their money on alcohol or someone was particularly unwise in how they spend their money it would be picked up on the questionare when answering about the income and outgoings. If someone had enough money coming in to cover their bills and buy food but still didint cover all their outgoings, I am sure it would raise a red flag.
Once its been established that a person is in a need for the money and has a real need then once the money is in their hand no one is gonna ask what they spend it on.
Furthermore, as I said, this form has to be filled out once or twice a year.
If someone had loads of credit cards for example they might be helped for a while but would have to talk to their advicer in how to deal with these problems and the money wouldnt be continued.
Whether you still think its irresponsible is not something I have control over. I fail tto see why you would. I have seen for myself that it works, it cant be taken advantage of and the ppl benefiting do so with their dignity intact.
My point was that during the course of this conversation I got the feeling that you didnt have as much of an issue as to how the tzedokoh organisations were run or who is in charge of them and whether or not it is done dangerously. I got the impression that what your real issue was that you didnt see camp for example as being a valid need and that you had an issue with anyone getting help for camp and even going as far as to say that to me it seemed that you felt it spoiled (for lack of better word) that some women here would say that for them it was a valid need. It seemed to me that it was said that camp is a new thing and our ancesters got along without it so if someone says that they need it they are spoiled or are shnorring or wanting to shnorre of other ppls hard earned money (even if there are ppl out there who'd be glad to give).
I got the impression that some ppl here thought that if they could do it, then why cant others, that ppl are irresponsible for wanting something they cant afford and go as far as t say that they need it.
This is the impression I got, and yes I got it (and I do this without pointing fingers-but as a response to the quesion earlier of whom my question was directed to-this I can tell you here-with all due respect-and I am happy to be wrong) from the op of this post, from the very unpleasant amother, from FreidaSima and from Ora, I dont remember if there were more but of the top of my head I cant think of others.
I got the impression that you (mentioned above) felt this way in short to summarise that ppl who felt a need you dont see as a need are spoiled (cant think of a better word) and that if they cant afford it but still want it and especially if they use a credit card for it or get help through tzedokkoh that they are using other ppl or are irresponsible for getting something they dont really need.
I am basing these views on what has been discussed the past few pages. If I misunderstood thats great but if I did then I am pretty sure there might be others and if any of the ppl who misunderstood are the ppl who feels a need for camp then clarifying that this is not what you meant might help those ppl feel less pathetic (which is how I'd feel if I felt a need for camp and I read this) then I felt you made me feel.
If this is truly how you feel, then I am at a loss for words and am not sure how to respond or if I should respond to be quite honest.
I for one have no idea what organization you are talking about in England and therefore I can't comment on it.
I do not trust a questionnaire which is self reporting. People lie. People are in denial. If you state that the organization has field workers who go out and observe, who personally question a family and who check all the circumstances including environment and management that's a different thing. So far all I have heard of is a self reporting questionnaire to which professions respond to. In psychotherapy that's one thing, but when handing out money that's another. So I can't say.
As for some people being spoiled, yes I for one think that there seems to be quite a group of young women who think that it is normal to live beyond their means and have someone else cover it. And that living beyond their means is also sending to camp unless you are talking about a family with an ill parent, SN child or a bunch of other situations we have already been over. There seems to be this tremendous fear on the one hand of leaving a child home to play with siblings, a few friends etc. I can see the problem when one speaks of the only 12 year old in the neighborhood who you are afraid for various reasons will use the summer to begin going OTD, but again that's not what we are primarily talking about. This thread was about SAHMs who seem to be overwhelmed with caring for the younger children they have for the summer (but keep planning to have more in some cases) and CANT afford camp on their own and want the public pocket to pay for it.
Why? Because they "can't cope?" What exactly can't they cope WITH? The daily mess and bother of raising children? That has nothing to do with advanced technology, davka advanced technology makes it easier sometimes (more "gadgets" to keep the kids occupied from DVDs to whatever). And it goes along with a general mentality that some of us have noticed of the "I must have" stuff and the instant gratification tendency that some people seem to exhibit.
but most of all, it's the feeling of "I want something, I do it and the public will pay because it's my RIGHT to do it". Yes, it's your right to do it but it's not a necessity that the public will pay. It's zedoko that the public will pay and the public can decide where and when it wants to give out the zedoko money or its maaser money or whatever. And the spreading of this feeling of entitlement that we MUST gives some of us very bad vibes about the creation of an unsustainable life style making unsustainable choices for the Jewish people long term by some people. Not all, maybe not even many, but some. And some is problematic enough in the present situation, financial and other, of the Jewish people...
To me it is simple. A person asks, a person can give or not. Someone asked recently if we could give them money for food because they spent major money on getting the A.C. fixed. Considering we haven't money for food, it really didn't matter WHAT they spent it on, our answer was no. We can't. Whether the A.C. was or was not a necessity (and in this case I think it was) we didn't have the money.
That's all. You have money you give to the charity of your choice. If you don't like the reason for the request say no. If you feel the request is unreasonable say no. If you prefer to give your 10% to hungry scholars or children or families in Yerushalayim or to pay for camp or music for a talented but impoverished child that's YOUR choice.
I don't understand why you care if someone asks and someone else gives.
But we are talking about theory. Do you think a typical SAHM with no major issues who can't afford to send her kids to camp should ask for tzedaka?
THEORY doesn't cover living people. That's the problem. In theory no one should need tzedakah imho because in theory we should be taking care of needs automatically.
Just give or don't give. That's all. Choose and don't get upset about what else is going on.
I mean, like, my daughter knew what Victoria's Secret was and went with her friend to buy makeup there since her early teenage years. That she's been waxing her eyebrows since that age as well. Stuff like that.
Stuff that I didn't even think about, until I was 40 plus.
Stuff like that is just a sign of the times, not necessarily of ruined middos. It's the status quo.
Here is an example: Sure, families who have little money can eat mainly rice and beans, but nowadays that's not mainstream in most areas in developed countries. So too sending to camp may have become the norm. People can do without if they must, but it is seen as a hardship because of the way our society has evolved.
. Today mendy's therapist is out sick so he had to stay home. Shimie was home by 11:30. And I'm packing! And I'm surviving! Probably bcz my husband will be home at 2 iyh and my cleaning help is here, and I have no errands or appts or phone calls etc today, just stuff arond the house. So... I'm managing fine... a month ago I probably woudlve freaked out to have him for 3 hours. after he was out every day til 6 pm he's happy to be home and BH not destroying anything. and he said a few basic sounds in context today so I'm in a better mood... So why am I writing this? I donno, I guess just because I wanted to try tempering the image of an imbalimpert balabuste here...
