I may only have 2 kids, but I ran a playgroup with up to 11 kids, aged 1 year to 3 years old, for 2 years... So I know what its like to have a whole bunch of kids. I watched the kids from 7:30 am until 2 pm. And if you could believe it, I only started having an assistant for 2 hours a day, 2 times a week when I got 11 kids midway through the year- when I had 10, I was on my own. And we went to the park. And did projects. I think those who make having 6 kids (some who are significantly older than 3! because yes, as shalhevet said, unless you're octomom or have multiples, if you have 6 kids, your oldest is at LEAST 5 years old, probably older.) into such a big deal are over dramatizing for "special effects", but anyone could do that.
You are bragging that you took care of 10 children by yourself in a playgroup? It must be cultural then because I don't know anyone who would send their kid to a playgroup with no assistant. Its very irresponsible and illegal. Its totally unacceptable in my community. I am not impressed. Is this acceptable in Israel or maybe its your community?
The problem is, summer vacation is too long. 11 weeks, here. If you have a child who really enjoys school, they're up the walls by 2 weeks in. Mine already is. Now, I do live in the suburbs and I have access to parks and a pool, but I can't just walk down the block; I have to drive. Not that that's so terrible, but compared to when I lived somewhere more built up, not so easy. Mama Bear's part of Brooklyn is really crowded, but there are parts of cities that aren't as bad, that have trees, where you just take the kids to the park down the block and walk home.
Is camp a luxury? In the sense that you're not going to die without it, yes. OTOH, the way we have structured things, camp has become an extremely high priority luxury. Even without all the pressure from the neighbors and so on. If I had to do this for 4 weeks, it would be much easier. Even my husband notices the difference in her behavior. (BTW she's 4.5.) If I had to do it for 11, I'd be heading off for a little vacation of my own. There are some activities I can take her to, but they cost money too, and it adds up; after a point, camp becomes more practical, especially when you're talking preschool day camp, which is the least expensive time.)
We chose to split the difference and send for half the summer. (We could have afforded half days for 8 weeks or full for 4; but most kids at her camp go full days, and for various reasons, that worked better for us this year.) I'm not going to condone begging, but our camp offers partial scholarships and I'm not going to look down on anyone who applies for one.
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Seraph, while I respect what you do, I'm going to say loud and clear that if you don't feel the need to send your kids out, then you probably don't need to. Those who feel the dread of being a shmatte each day with the kids around, know that they need the kids out of the house..
Listen, while I generally enjoy having my kids around, for the past little while I've been having a very rough time and definitely thought long and hard about sending them out. I definitely see the appeal and get why people do! However, I still dont think it always is a need the way some people here are describing. No one is taking issue with the fact that some people said "I'm having a hard time, I need my kids out", its taking issue with people say "You're cruel if you don't send your kids to camp" and "Everyone needs to go to camp; how dare you deprive them".
Camp isn't a need for everyone. I'd wager that its not a need for most people. That doesn't mean there arent people who definitely need it.
Most people probably fit into the category of "They'd really benefit and so would their kids if they went to camp, but they physically could survive without it, it would just be hard."
And thats where I fit right now.
But since I have limited funds, I'm doing what is very hard for me physically right now, and keeping them home, even though I really have strongly considered sending them out. And we probably could send them to camp now and swing it financially, it would just mean not having money for other things I feel are more important. So that is the choice we make.
And I don't have any issue with people who choose that they'd rather spend their hard earned money on camp and not have it for other things that they view as less necessary (but I view as more necessary).
Its only when:
People say camp is an absolute need for everyone, and people should take tzedaka to send their kids to camp if they dont have enough money for rent or food
People say I'm doing a terrible thing and being cruel to my children for not sending them to camp
that I take issue.
But yea, certainly for some, sending to camp is a need, not a luxury.
But those some certainly aren't everyone.
I may only have 2 kids, but I ran a playgroup with up to 11 kids, aged 1 year to 3 years old, for 2 years... So I know what its like to have a whole bunch of kids. I watched the kids from 7:30 am until 2 pm. And if you could believe it, I only started having an assistant for 2 hours a day, 2 times a week when I got 11 kids midway through the year- when I had 10, I was on my own. And we went to the park. And did projects. I think those who make having 6 kids (some who are significantly older than 3! because yes, as shalhevet said, unless you're octomom or have multiples, if you have 6 kids, your oldest is at LEAST 5 years old, probably older.) into such a big deal are over dramatizing for "special effects", but anyone could do that.
You are bragging that you took care of 10 children by yourself in a playgroup? It must be cultural then because I don't know anyone who would send their kid to a playgroup with no assistant. Its very irresponsible and illegal. Its totally unacceptable in my community. I am not impressed. Is this acceptable in Israel or maybe its your community?
Wow. I wasn't expecting that. All I was saying is I know what it means to watch a lot of kids.
And yes, it is perfectly legal and acceptable in Israel, at least in the community where I lived. I can name many ganim exactly like that.
Sorry, not processing, because that isn't real life. So I guess camp is a luxury when you aren't living real life.
And I am even sorrier. Being pg and/or having a baby every year isn't living real life, either. I can't process that part. And you calling it real-life doesn't make it so. It's your CHOICE to make that real life. In real life, people have the number of children they can handle mentally, physically and financially. If you had just one kid, were a SAHM, and had zero money would camp be a luxury? Of course it would. So how does having a bunch of kids (your choice) and presumably less money make it no longer a luxury? Please, enlighten me.
Since you're amother, give yourself a good reason to be amother and give us some details. Are you living in Brooklyn? Are you Chassidish? How many children do you have and what are their ages?
Let me know and then I'll see if an answer to you is worth my time.
I always try to weigh the lesser of the 2 evils - shlep the stroller up & down the multiple flights of stairs on the subway, or fold the stroller (which is VERY hard to do one handed!!!)... what if you have a 28 pound toddler I that stroller, a toddler that runs away when taken out of the stroller???
I usually do not end up going anywhere unless dh drives me. he's only avaialble on weekends.
Going on day trip alone with my kids is someting I avoid at all costs. I avoid going anwyhwere with both of them unless it's a local destination - I dont travel with both of them. cant imagine doing it with 5 kids, aznd not for 10 weeks straight.
MamaBear so then camp IS NOT a luxury for you given your circumstances. No one said camp is a luxury for everyone. Same as day care isn't a luxury for everyone. Or a sanitorium visit. Each person has needs both for himself and his children. You, Mama Bear, are willing to pay for your child to go. At whatever cost. And if not, there is probably a camp fund so you are set.
But.. WHO got you into an apartment on a fourth floor in hot disgusting Brooklyn, and WHO is responsible for making it all work out? Do you think that if you could not afford to send them, someone such as myself (who traditionally doesn't send kids yet lives somewhere decent), should give tzedaka for that?
FTR, I am part of a Mommy camp (this year and last) for my 12 yo son. Before that he just hung around. Yeah, it's work and yeah, he's going to be hanging out a lot anyway as camp is just 2-3 activities/week. And my 6.5 yo is getting camp this year from his gan for 3-4 weeks and will be hanging out for all of August. Last year he was home for the whole 2 months, looked after by his brothers. And I work part time. And we have terrible public transportation. And it's dang hot here in Israel as in: you can't go out to the park after 10 or 11 am and before 5 or 6 pm, any day of the week and no rain-breaks. And my husband works at home and needs peace and quiet.
I realize that everyone has something going on, I don't live in lala land. By the same token, I also am shocked at people who set themselves up for a type of life, or when they get thrown rotten tomatoes by life, see absolutely no reason to have to adapt . That's the shocking part. And it goes on and on in threads on this board. I'd like to have some of you walk a mile in my shoes, and then call my opinions judgmental. They aren't. They are realistic. No fantasies here.
Tamiri.... see, there's the cultural divide. I cant live anywhere else for a whole slew of reasons. and anyway in my world, no one stays home all summer - everyone goes to day camp, and it is bh affordable. no, I would not go around asking for tzedakah for daycamp. My posts wer just to point out to you that for city kids day camp is far from a luxury.
BH my in laws have a bit of an inheritance so when I'm in a financial bind I have where to turn to. They help me with medical bills, etc. So the Ops post isnt exactly my story; I was just pointing out why a summer in the city with kids home is very very not do-able. It's not entitlement nor luxury; it's sanity.
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Seraph, while I respect what you do, I'm going to say loud and clear that if you don't feel the need to send your kids out, then you probably don't need to. Those who feel the dread of being a shmatte each day with the kids around, know that they need the kids out of the house..
Listen, while I generally enjoy having my kids around, for the past little while I've been having a very rough time and definitely thought long and hard about sending them out. I definitely see the appeal and get why people do! However, I still dont think it always is a need the way some people here are describing. No one is taking issue with the fact that some people said "I'm having a hard time, I need my kids out", its taking issue with people say "You're cruel if you don't send your kids to camp" and "Everyone needs to go to camp; how dare you deprive them".
Camp isn't a need for everyone. I'd wager that its not a need for most people. That doesn't mean there arent people who definitely need it.
Most people probably fit into the category of "They'd really benefit and so would their kids if they went to camp, but they physically could survive without it, it would just be hard."
And thats where I fit right now.
But since I have limited funds, I'm doing what is very hard for me physically right now, and keeping them home, even though I really have strongly considered sending them out. And we probably could send them to camp now and swing it financially, it would just mean not having money for other things I feel are more important. So that is the choice we make.
And I don't have any issue with people who choose that they'd rather spend their hard earned money on camp and not have it for other things that they view as less necessary (but I view as more necessary).
Its only when:
People say camp is an absolute need for everyone, and people should take tzedaka to send their kids to camp if they dont have enough money for rent or food
People say I'm doing a terrible thing and being cruel to my children for not sending them to camp
that I take issue.
But yea, certainly for some, sending to camp is a need, not a luxury.
But those some certainly aren't everyone.
Then we agree. That was my point all along, you can't make a generalization about everybody's needs vs. wants.
The people in this thread who were saying camp is a need for them don't need to be deluged with comments about what incapable, lazy mothers they are. I dare them to spend a day or two in these women's shoes and see how they fare.
Seraph, it seems like your kids would benefit from being in camp. I don't really see too much positive in how you described your day. You might feel like you are giving them alot more attention and pat yourself on your back about being a SAHM and beshita not sending them to camp but read back at what you wrote: you tried to get some more sleep so gave food to occupy the kids, you tried to wash dishes so they fought, you tried to check email so turned on a video and had to run back in to discipline or whatever. They tear the house apart throwing toys in every direction, took them to the park and they throw bricks (!) to get what they want. I don't see what they are gaining in this case. A little bit of structure goes a long way.
As for all the Israeli posters who are lauding themselves for not having camp: I lived in Israel for many years. The kids were bored silly and hung around doing nothing. Don't tell me that you are all busy making mommy camp all day. There is a great deal of hefkerus going on which is a real problem. Every time I got ready to take my kids to the zoo or pool there was a crowd of kids begging to come along. Many of the kids sat on the steps throwing garbage around. 7 yr old girls were busy taking their little siblings to the park. Yes, many moms tried their best to provide activities but we are talking about 12 hours of the day.
And Freidasima you must be slightly off the wall to suggest an activity of ripping toilet paper to take 2 hours. 2 minutes is more like it.
And lastly, day camp in America is usually over by 3:00 or 4:00 for older kids. There are still 3-4 hours for mothers to do an activity with the kids or go to the park. Sending to daycamp doesn't exactly mean handing their kids over for the summer. Please.
For the record, I live in the suburbs, have a big backyard and great parks nearby. My kids are in camp for july but will be home in august.
1. Why are yeshivas off all summer long - in EY there is 3 weeks of bein hazemanim. Of course boys need to keep learning - why does it have to be with an expensive camp?
2. I've never been to Brooklyn, but I've learned 2 things about it from imamother. One, that it is really, really expensive to buy/rent there. Two, that the living conditions are awful - freezing cold in winter, boiling hot in summer, expensive, you have to get on a bus just to go to a park.
So why do you (those who do) live there?
1. that's what I was explaining; BH in Wmsbg, day camp for boys is part of yeshiva tuition. They have a regular leanring schedule, with some activities & swimming thrown in. But above age 10 you have to go to sleepaway camp. there is no yeshiva in the city after age 10/11.
2. Why??? Because people want to live near their (take your pick): a) rebbe, b) parents/inlaws, c) job. Not everyone has cars, and the commute to work or to family simchos by public bus is expensive and difficult. Not to mention finding babysitters every time you have a family simcha. And the kids grow up really not knowing their grandparents and family... Some people do move upstate once their family is really large KEH and they cant afford a large rental. But in the beginning, say, the first decade or so of marriage, people prefer to live where they grew up. Even if it's hard. That's why they go to the catskills in the summer, even if they can barely afford it.
Shal I agree in full. I certainly wasn't talking about temporary situations, if I I myself would have stopped at one (lol!) but when someone sees what looks like an ongoing situation that's my take. You know that by three kids, whether you should space the next one, not "not have" the next one, but maybe wait two years before getting pregnant or even three, instead of not using anything and risking another baby the next year.
Pink, I wasn't saying that living in South Dakota is the norm. But I am definitely coming out in answer to those women saying that without a "village" of helping hands, some giving them zedoko, they can't raise their kids on their own. They can. It requires sacrifices.
Back to the original post that started this debate. I, like Tamiri, can not for the life of me understand this entitlement. Many things in life are choices. You would be surprised how many things people can do without and still do without and get through life fine. Again, if you are so "spoiled" that you can't cope maybe rethink the big family business because you aren't always going to find the zedoko for the lifestyle you claim you need. Then what would you do?
I think the people describing how difficult it is looking after 6 children (mama bear, ronit) do not actually HAVE 6 children. Or even 4 or 5. (ok, they may have other circumstances that make life very diffiicult, but for those of us without those circumstances, things may be very different)
I have taken my (5) kids on buses many times and it is not such a big deal at all. In some ways I prefer it to driving. I avoid buses where you need to fold the stroller and try and stick to the wheelchair accessible buses.
My siblings and close friends do. they have 6, 7, 8 kids. even if the oldest is 13. it's HECTIC AND CRAZY. I listen to wat goes on there during bain hazmanim, chol hamoed... it's manageable for a few days. Not an entire summer. and especially when you have to come up with ways to keep them busy. They can kiss housework, laundry, and sanity goodbye if they do. They stay up til 1 in the morning just cleaning up the mess - and that's only with a few days. My siblings with that many kids dont travel to places with public transport. It's jut not possible to keep enough eyes out for everyone. and they come home a shmatta. do that for 10 weeks? gimme a big break with a cherry on top.
I may only have 2 kids, but I ran a playgroup with up to 11 kids, aged 1 year to 3 years old, for 2 years... So I know what its like to have a whole bunch of kids. I watched the kids from 7:30 am until 2 pm. And if you could believe it, I only started having an assistant for 2 hours a day, 2 times a week when I got 11 kids midway through the year- when I had 10, I was on my own. And we went to the park. And did projects. I think those who make having 6 kids (some who are significantly older than 3! because yes, as shalhevet said, unless you're octomom or have multiples, if you have 6 kids, your oldest is at LEAST 5 years old, probably older.) into such a big deal are over dramatizing for "special effects", but anyone could do that.
You are bragging that you took care of 10 children by yourself in a playgroup? It must be cultural then because I don't know anyone who would send their kid to a playgroup with no assistant. Its very irresponsible and illegal. Its totally unacceptable in my community. I am not impressed. Is this acceptable in Israel or maybe its your community?
Wow. I wasn't expecting that. All I was saying is I know what it means to watch a lot of kids.
And yes, it is perfectly legal and acceptable in Israel, at least in the community where I lived. I can name many ganim exactly like that.
I have a best friend who has a playgroup, she has hired me on many occasions to just be in the the room so that when mothers came to pick up her kid they saw an assistant. I did help my friend but she said the main reason was that parents would take their kid out if she didn't have an assistant. I wanted to prove to you that something totally acceptable in your community can be something unacceptable in another community. Its forsure illegal here too.
Seraph, it seems like your kids would benefit from being in camp. I don't really see too much positive in how you described your day. You might feel like you are giving them alot more attention and pat yourself on your back about being a SAHM and beshita not sending them to camp but read back at what you wrote: you tried to get some more sleep so gave food to occupy the kids, you tried to wash dishes so they fought, you tried to check email so turned on a video and had to run back in to discipline or whatever. They tear the house apart throwing toys in every direction, took them to the park and they throw bricks (!) to get what they want. I don't see what they are gaining in this case. A little bit of structure goes a long way.
OMG.
Obviously I was exaggerating in the extent that I was only focusing on the negative in my post. I didnt mention any of the positive that went on.
Uh, my son asked for food, so I gave him something that I could eat while I was in bed without worry of a mess. I put on a video for the kids- I don't see anything wrong with that. They enjoy tearing the house apart, but thats why I have to keep a close eye on them. I took them to the park and my son tried to pick up a brick when his older brother said "Throw this at the pocketbook to get it down" but I was right there and stopped him before he could pick up the brick, and suggested that the ball was a safer option.
I didnt write the structure that I did have with them. The sitting down to breakfast together, the davening, the art projects we do, the learning about brachos, the hebrew lessons...
There is plenty that my boys are gaining from being home. They gain more when I have more koach, which at the moment I don't have, but they still gain from being home. And there are pluses and minuses of camp as well.
All I was saying was- if you want to exagerate and only look at the negative, you can make anyones day sound cuckoo. But its all a matter of perspective; a good attitude changes a lot.
Raisin, I think for kids who are isolated from frum Jews most of hte year, Jewish camp is much more important. But for a kid in Yeshiva all year long?
Fox, Yes, I get solicited for money for camps.
Mama Bear, there are no parks close to you in Williamsburg? Why is it so hard to get to the park?
I am disturbed by the amount of people who seem to feel they can't cope with their children. Yes, I'm living in the suburbs with a car, but I've taken my kids on buses, subways and schlepped them around manhattan and brooklyn. My 9th month of a very hard pregnancy was spent home with my two toddlers. I took them out most days to the park or other places, even though it was hard for me. I had awful hyperemesis, was dizzy and really not feeling well. But I chose to cope.
Yes, my kids aren't special needs kids. But my 1.5 year old is not specifically a good listener. I often had to wear him in an ergo carrier, even at 9 months pregnant.
Yes, camp is wonderful for many children. that doesn't change that its usually a luxury.
This thread is making me slightly uncomfortable, to be totally honest. While I agree that camp is certainly a luxury, a parent at the end of her wits is not someone who is "spoiled". A pregnant woman who is uncomfortable without air conditioning is not "spoiled". We are all capable of different things, and some women do not have the strength to care for 4 or 6 or however many children all summer without a break. Presuming that other women are capable of all that you can do is unfair, to put it bluntly. To say that these women are spoiled assumes a whole lot about their situation that nobody else is privy to.
I don't know if *spoiled* is the word that I would use.
But I do find it disconcerting, and certainly eye-opening, to realize that so many women profess to being unable to care for their own kids at home on a day in, day out basis, and therefore believe that camp is a necessity. The nearly universal notion that spending a day with one's own kids would make them into a *dishrag,* unable to make dinner. (And I've got to wonder what people are making for dinner that's so difficult and time-consuming to make.)
FTR, I *do* live in an urban apartment, and while I only have one kid, many of my friends have 5 or more. And camp is not a universal thing in or neighborhood, particularly for younger kids, unless both parents are working. (For the woman who works at home, as does her husband -- you're a working mom.) *Maybe* kids go to day camp for 3 or 4 weeks once they're in grade school. In fact, with the economic crisis, more and more local camps are offering one-week options.
There are, by the way, groups that do raise money to help kids participate in Jewish camping, because going to Jewish camp is highly predictive of in-marriage for kids who don't attend day schools or have other strong Jewish connections. But I'm guessing that not a lot of kids here qualify.
Seraph, it seems like your kids would benefit from being in camp. I don't really see too much positive in how you described your day. You might feel like you are giving them alot more attention and pat yourself on your back about being a SAHM and beshita not sending them to camp but read back at what you wrote: you tried to get some more sleep so gave food to occupy the kids, you tried to wash dishes so they fought, you tried to check email so turned on a video and had to run back in to discipline or whatever. They tear the house apart throwing toys in every direction, took them to the park and they throw bricks (!) to get what they want. I don't see what they are gaining in this case. A little bit of structure goes a long way.
OMG.
Obviously I was exaggerating in the extent that I was only focusing on the negative in my post. I didnt mention any of the positive that went on.
Uh, my son asked for food, so I gave him something that I could eat while I was in bed without worry of a mess. I put on a video for the kids- I don't see anything wrong with that. They enjoy tearing the house apart, but thats why I have to keep a close eye on them. I took them to the park and my son tried to pick up a brick when his older brother said "Throw this at the pocketbook to get it down" but I was right there and stopped him before he could pick up the brick, and suggested that the ball was a safer option.
I didnt write the structure that I did have with them. The sitting down to breakfast together, the davening, the art projects we do, the learning about brachos, the hebrew lessons...
There is plenty that my boys are gaining from being home. They gain more when I have more koach, which at the moment I don't have, but they still gain from being home. And there are pluses and minuses of camp as well.
All I was saying was- if you want to exagerate and only look at the negative, you can make anyones day sound cuckoo. But its all a matter of perspective; a good attitude changes a lot.
Seraph, it seems like your kids would benefit from being in camp. I don't really see too much positive in how you described your day. You might feel like you are giving them alot more attention and pat yourself on your back about being a SAHM and beshita not sending them to camp but read back at what you wrote: you tried to get some more sleep so gave food to occupy the kids, you tried to wash dishes so they fought, you tried to check email so turned on a video and had to run back in to discipline or whatever. They tear the house apart throwing toys in every direction, took them to the park and they throw bricks (!) to get what they want. I don't see what they are gaining in this case. A little bit of structure goes a long way.
OMG.
Obviously I was exaggerating in the extent that I was only focusing on the negative in my post. I didnt mention any of the positive that went on.
Uh, my son asked for food, so I gave him something that I could eat while I was in bed without worry of a mess. I put on a video for the kids- I don't see anything wrong with that. They enjoy tearing the house apart, but thats why I have to keep a close eye on them. I took them to the park and my son tried to pick up a brick when his older brother said "Throw this at the pocketbook to get it down" but I was right there and stopped him before he could pick up the brick, and suggested that the ball was a safer option.
I didnt write the structure that I did have with them. The sitting down to breakfast together, the davening, the art projects we do, the learning about brachos, the hebrew lessons...
There is plenty that my boys are gaining from being home. They gain more when I have more koach, which at the moment I don't have, but they still gain from being home. And there are pluses and minuses of camp as well.
All I was saying was- if you want to exagerate and only look at the negative, you can make anyones day sound cuckoo. But its all a matter of perspective; a good attitude changes a lot.
As for all the Israeli posters who are lauding themselves for not having camp: I lived in Israel for many years. The kids were bored silly and hung around doing nothing. Don't tell me that you are all busy making mommy camp all day. There is a great deal of hefkerus going on which is a real problem. Every time I got ready to take my kids to the zoo or pool there was a crowd of kids begging to come along. Many of the kids sat on the steps throwing garbage around. 7 yr old girls were busy taking their little siblings to the park. Yes, many moms tried their best to provide activities but we are talking about 12 hours of the day.
.
Not everyone in Israel is bored silly. Tons of kids go to day camps. The people posting here on imamother represent a certain segment of society. Believe me, there are a million day camps here to suit every need and they are not out of the world expensive. Chabad camps especially are relatively cheap.
I sent my kids to 3 week day camps for years; this summer they don't want to go. But they won't be bored silly. We have a huge playground across the street. We live a short drive from the beach; we go at least once or twice a week. Twice a week I will take the five of them out for a big tiyul, like the safari or the amusement park. Yes, it costs money, but we take that into account every summer. We haven't travelled abroad in a decade and we don't go to hotels or restaurants. We do put aside money to entertain the children in the summer.
I'm not going to join the b/c debate but it is difficult to leave the house when you have babies. BTDT. Mothers who have babies every single year are very likely going to miss out on the chance to go for day trips with their other kids, with all the experiences and memories that includes. You have to realize that when you decide to have another baby; you can't have your cake and eat it too.
This thread is making me slightly uncomfortable, to be totally honest. While I agree that camp is certainly a luxury, a parent at the end of her wits is not someone who is "spoiled". A pregnant woman who is uncomfortable without air conditioning is not "spoiled". We are all capable of different things, and some women do not have the strength to care for 4 or 6 or however many children all summer without a break. Presuming that other women are capable of all that you can do is unfair, to put it bluntly. To say that these women are spoiled assumes a whole lot about their situation that nobody else is privy to.
I don't know if *spoiled* is the word that I would use.
But I do find it disconcerting, and certainly eye-opening, to realize that so many women profess to being unable to care for their own kids at home on a day in, day out basis, and therefore believe that camp is a necessity. The nearly universal notion that spending a day with one's own kids would make them into a *dishrag,* unable to make dinner. (And I've got to wonder what people are making for dinner that's so difficult and time-consuming to make.)
FTR, I *do* live in an urban apartment, and while I only have one kid, many of my friends have 5 or more. And camp is not a universal thing in or neighborhood, particularly for younger kids, unless both parents are working. (For the woman who works at home, as does her husband -- you're a working mom.) *Maybe* kids go to day camp for 3 or 4 weeks once they're in grade school. In fact, with the economic crisis, more and more local camps are offering one-week options.
There are, by the way, groups that do raise money to help kids participate in Jewish camping, because going to Jewish camp is highly predictive of in-marriage for kids who don't attend day schools or have other strong Jewish connections. But I'm guessing that not a lot of kids here qualify.
when there are a lot of other kids in the neighborhood not at camp, that already solves most of the problem. It becomes a bigger issue when all of your neighbors' kids aren't home for the summer and all you r dc's playmates aren't available.
I think luxury vs. necessity has a lot to do with the social norms surrounding you. none of us are living quite like the pioneers; they survived, didn't they? (or not)
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
and seraph? Your living conditions are exactly what our bungalows in the country look like. but that's why we 'live' outdoors in the summer. only someonw with your degree of laidback-ness - Ive met you in person - can live like that all year long. it's like a prison.
