Judaism and well, Anxiety!

shalhevet ↓

Sun, Aug 27 2006, 9:56 am

I think IF people have OCD etc, then they can end up using halachos distortedly e.g.washing negel vasser umpteen times [just to be sure] or, like you mentioned preparations for the mikva etc. But a person with the same problems, just not frum, would just find something else to be obsessive about like washing his hands regularly. I.e. halachos can be used as a symptom, but it's not the cause.

It's the same as someone crazy who's frum thinking he's mashiach and someone else thinks he's Elvis.

amother ↓

Sun, Aug 27 2006, 3:00 pm

I'm the amother with ocd who has posted in a thread or two before. For me, ocd rarely gets mixed up with frumkeit - it's other things. Occasionally something will come up (am I really sure I've toiveled everything I should have? am I sure I didn't skip anything?). When that happens I have a rav who knows me, knows about the ocd (and read up on it as well), has a huge amount of common sense, and whom I trust. Inevitably he tells me to calm down and says that 1) I didn't do anything wrong and 2) if I did anything wrong it is on his head and not mine from that moment forward because he's telling me not to.... go back and toivel all of my dishes, say the davening again, start counting days again, you name it.

Ruchel ↓

Sun, Aug 27 2006, 5:02 pm

This thread is interesting... When I was dating dh, I received a few numbers of an American Reform mag from an internet acquaintance, and well there was an article on this exact topic! Basically, if I remember well, it said some Bts came back to religion because in reality they had obsessive compulsive disorders which made them feel "at home" with the repetition, the chumrot and so on, and when cured, most of them went back to frei.

Anyway, I agree with mummyof6 and not with ^

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 27 2006, 6:41 pm

I don't think Mummyof6 and I were disagreeing. Anyhow, I've been subclinical for years and never went back to being frei. I do think, however, that it is important to have a frum therapist because it is entirely possible that a non-frum therapist may try to convince a BT that the reason for becoming religious is the ocd. Depending on the person's situation, he or she might be vulnerable to that line if they are suffering very much from the ocd or are not yet very secure in their yiddishkeit.

↑ Ruchel

Sun, Aug 27 2006, 6:44 pm

amother wrote:

No no, I meant I disagreed with the mag, not you!

chen ↓

Mon, Aug 28 2006, 11:08 am

I agree with mummyof6--yiddishkeit doesn't lead to OCD or anxiety disorders, but if you're going to be that way, yiddishkeit has plenty of scope for you to latch on to. but so what? if you're going to be that way, you can find anything at all to latch on to. If you don't have negelvasser or hechsherim to scrutinize, you'll iron your shirt 20 times over till the creases in the sleeves line up just so. (I just feel sorry for mikvah ladies who have clients whose OCD manifests itslef in having to soak for three hours, flaying off their skin, and repeatedly finding some problem so they have to repeat the teviloh over and over.)

A former classmate of mine couldn't stand to have a mistake crossed out in her class notes, so if she made a goof, she'd rip out the page and copy it over from the beginning. Her notebook looked fabulous, but of course she was always missing at least half the lecture.

TzenaRena ↓

Mon, Aug 28 2006, 11:32 am

SaraG wrote:

Don't you think some things like having to be careful about hechshearim, mikvah like momof3 mentioned earlier, etc., may feed into OCD, unhealthy anxiety, etc?

Being careful with mitzvos is OCD???? How about Yiras Shomayim maybe?

I suppose that when Rabbi Levi Yitzchok Schneersohn (the Rebbe's father) fasted for three days before he issued a Get he was manifesting "unhealthy anxiety". Question

↑ shalhevet

Mon, Aug 28 2006, 11:43 am

SY, there are people who suffer from a medical problem called OCD. With them if they check the hechsher 47 times to make absolutely sure it's OK it's not because of yiras shamayim at all. They abuse Judaism (not in their control) and may possibly also check 47 times that they locked their front door before they left the house.

It has nothing to do with people who are careful in things because of yiras shamayim. If they are careful with something it is because they have thought it through and are consciously trying to do something to the highest standards.

If someone is not sure in which category their behaviour lies, consultation with a knowledgeable rav is in order.

Like I mentioned before, people with mental problems who are also frum can use halacha etc in an abnormal / compulsive/ abusive way, but they would behave in the same way about different issues if they weren't frum.

mimsy7420

Mon, Aug 28 2006, 12:03 pm

I think I've posted about this before. My father is a psychologist, and he told me of a case of a yeshiva boy who was refered to him, who has OCD. This yeshiva boy had previously been seeing a non-frum psychologist and was told that in order to get this disease under control he would have to give up religion because the everydayness of religion and the rituals involved, feed directly into his OCD. The rituals of religion are feeding ground for OCD.
This is of course, not true, but does go to show that it is important to be sure of the therapist you choose, and sometimes it is better to go to a frum psycholigist, not always of course, but if you do go to a non-frum psychologist, be sure it's the right choice, and they are used to dealing with religious people in general.

↑ TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 28 2006, 12:13 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

With them if they check the hechsher 47 times to make absolutely sure it's OK it's not because of yiras shamayim at all. They abuse Judaism (not in their control) and may possibly also check 47 times that they locked their front door before they left the house.

I think SaraG is talking about checking the hechsher on each and every product, not pointlessly looking at/for the same symbol 47 times.

mummyof6 wrote:

It has nothing to do with people who are careful in things because of yiras shamayim. If they are careful with something it is because they have thought it through and are consciously trying to do something to the highest standards.

so that means that OCD is when someone mindlessly goes through a routine many times, without a conscious thought, right ? I don't see then how someone could pin an OCD label onto scrupulous mitzvah observance which is as you say thought out, and conscious.

chen wrote:

A former classmate of mine couldn't stand to have a mistake crossed out in her class notes, so if she made a goof, she'd rip out the page and copy it over from the beginning. Her notebook looked fabulous, but of course she was always missing at least half the lecture.

Are you saying then that perfectionism is OCD? or that there's a strong connection?

chen wrote:

(I just feel sorry for mikvah ladies who have clients whose OCD manifests itslef in having to soak for three hours, flaying off their skin, and repeatedly finding some problem so they have to repeat the teviloh over and over.)

at one of the review sessions for married women, the speaker made a similar remark. (She didn't say anything about OCD though, this connection appears to have been recently developed or "discovered".) During the Q&A session, someone asked why she was coming down so harshly on those who take "too long", and said nothing about those who breeze through too quickly (a big(ger) problem from a halachic standpoint). The Rebbetzin acknowledged that this was true!

Esther01

Mon, Aug 28 2006, 8:35 pm

OCD is not only yeddishkeit. it's like someone who leaves her house and comes back to check that she closed her gas range b/4 leaving. sees it's closed, leaves again, comes in again to check again... and this repeats itself a couple of times.

or someone who each time they wake up in the middle of the night go to check taht the front door is locked. etc.
it's a type of anxiety...

but with yiddishkeit it's easy to be OCD and not know b/c ppl think it's frumkeiten.

busymom

Mon, Aug 28 2006, 11:10 pm

ok, faigie, let me clarify.

I'm from those who check twice if my gas is indeed turned OFF, when I know that it probably is... I am a perfectionist by nature (which would answer the question about the connection to OCD), and no it has nothing to do with poor memory! Smile

still, I wouldn't qualify as OCD b"H!

I have heard that many perfectionist will recheck things several times (anyone checks twice before mailing out checks that the amounts are indeed correct, the check is signed, etc., when you KNOW that it is!), but the difference between that and OCD is that when it's OCD it interferes with one's daily routine. for example, I can check the gas twice and still always leave my house and run errands, but an OCD person will check twice, go$ into the car, turn back to check twice, drive a block, return home... you get the idea! or like the example above, checking hechsheirim 47x on each item will certainly interfere with your routine/obligations. when it interferes with living a regular life one needs professional help... Crying

morningstar

Tue, Aug 29 2006, 8:32 am

Sara Yehudis, I think you underestimate the pain and misery caused by OCD. While in its milder forms, it can appear similar to "yiras shamayim" (and can even co-exist with yiras shamayim), it is really quite different.

When a woman is never out of the mikvah before midnight because she she takes a minimum of five or six hours for preparation, and then remarks that she can't wait for menopause, because she is so worried that she will do something wrong... that is OCD. She may have yiras shamayim as well, but the OCD is robbing her of all of the joy of the mitzvah. Sometimes, it takes these women a number of days to even get to the mikvah because they are busy at home night after night trying desperately to be "ready" before the mikvah closes.

This is like someone with questioning piece after piece of matzah on seder night, and ending up unable to fulfill the mitzvah of eating matzah. Ever. Yiras shamayim is able to balance the wish to be exceedingly careful with the obligation to eat matzah. The OCD personality is unable to temper the obsession, even when it is counterproductive.

Rabbanim do not encourage this kind of behavior. Rightfully so. Because we are meant to live with the mitzvos-- vechai bahem.