best product to IMPORT from Israel or Europe ?

↑ farm ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 11:40 am

The machlokes is about eating a food manufactored by a nonjew with a nonkosher batel ingredient.

↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 11:43 am

farm wrote:

The machlokes is about eating a food manufactored by a nonjew with a nonkosher batel ingredient.

Who says no?

↑ farm ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 12:37 pm

The Rashba

↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 12:39 pm

farm wrote:

The Rashba

Citation and posek who holds like this? Just curious-- I like to know stuff.

↑ farm ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 12:49 pm

You are being lazy. I've pointed you in the right direction, now research it yourself if you are curious!

↑ zipporah ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:05 pm

farm wrote:

You are being lazy. I've pointed you in the right direction, now research it yourself if you are curious!

I'm curious, and I'll share:

Intentional Nullification

I see the mention of the Rashba prohibiting food for the baker and his family and for the person the nonkosher ingredient was added for... but what about 3rd parties?

And I see the note that "some acharonim are more lenient if the baker is not Jewish (see Darkhei Teshuva 108:2)"

↑ farm ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:07 pm

The concept of Ein Mevatlin Issur Lechatchila (can’t make stuff that will be Batel anyway on purpose) is from Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Dayiah 99:5. That's a good starting point.

↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:09 pm

farm wrote:

The concept of Ein Mevatlin Issur Lechatchila (can’t make stuff that will be Batel anyway on purpose) is from Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Dayiah 99:5. That's a good starting point.

I'm just curious whether you have a psak not to eat foods that have been batel b'shishim or it's something you've arrived at on your own.

(And have you looked into the matter about US products with hechsherim that likely use bitul as well?)

↑ farm ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:12 pm

You are curious about halachos and the sources for the way we pasken things or what I buy, cook or serve in my house?

↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:16 pm

farm wrote:

You are curious about halachos and the sources for the way we pasken things or what I buy, cook or serve in my house?

The thing that started it is that YOU said that YOU don't feel comfortable eating something that has a trace amount of treif in it. So I was curious if you based it on a feeling, your own interpretation of the halacha, or a psak. Because it seems from the other Europeans that it is an accepted practice.

Btw, according to the link Rashba seems meikil and it seems like R. Akiva Eiger is the one who holds the way you hold.

↑ farm ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:34 pm

Quote:

YOU said that YOU don't feel comfortable eating something that has a trace amount of treif in it

No. You are completely misquoting me. Let me quote myself again:

Quote:

I'd rather take the stricter stance and not eat something that, according to some, is b'dieved to eat when there is mayonaisse that is l'chatchila to eat, according to all.

Don't know what the link is, the filter blocks it. No access to seforim right now, here's from Hashkafa.com- The Rashba holds that if a nonjew, in the normal food making process, adds some nonkosher batel-amount ingredient, then it is not batel. Bittul only works when it falls in by accident. This view is known by those who study Yoreh Deah since it is quoted in the Beit Yosef.

↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:35 pm

farm wrote:

Quote:

YOU said that YOU don't feel comfortable eating something that has a trace amount of treif in it

No. You are completely misquoting me. Let me quote myself again:

Quote:

I'd rather take the stricter stance and not eat something that, according to some, is b'dieved to eat when there is mayonaisse that is l'chatchila to eat, according to all.

According to that article, that's not what the Rashba says. Can't look it up now either.

So you are saying that it's your personal viewpoint, rather than a psak?

↑ farm ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:39 pm

yes ma'am.
I would appreciate an acknowledgement of the misquote.

↑ Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:48 pm

It took me a few minutes to google it, but I found the link.
http://www.hashkafah.com/index.....nion/
Seems like a poster quoted a blog for discussion.
I'll quote it for those whose filter does not let.

Quote:

Rav henkin, who together with R. Moshe Feinstein was the leading halakhic authority in the U.S. in the 1950's and 1960's, is quoted as saying that the entire basis for the existence of the kashrut organizations is the view of the Rashba. What did he mean by this?

There is a machloket rishonim and the Rashba holds that if a non-Jew, in the normal process of making a food product, adds some non-kosher element, even a very small percentage, then it is not batel. Bittul only works when it falls in by accident. This view is known by those who study Yoreh Deah since it is quoted in the Beit Yosef.

If you look at any of the standard Yoreh Deah books you will find, however, that the halakhah is not in accordance with this Rashba. Rather, any time the [gentile] puts a small amount of treif into the food it is batel, even if it is intentional on his part. There is a famous Noda Biyehudah that discusses this at length. See Mahadura Tinyana, Yoreh Deah no. 56 where he permits a drink that was produced using treif meat in the production but the amount of meat was very small and could not be tasted. He states that it is permissible. There is a Rama who has a teshuvah and states similarly. (I am sure if you describe the Noda Biyehudah's case to people, even learned ones, and say that there is a contemporary rabbi who permits this, they will mockingly refer to him as a Conservative or Reform rabbi since in their mind no "real" rabbi who knows halakhah could ever permit something that has non-kosher meat in it!)

So now we can understand R. henkin's comment. If you go to the kashrut organizations' websites and speak to them they will tell you that you need the hashgachah because sometimes the runs are not properly cleaned between kosher and non-kosher or milk and meat and some slight amounts of the objectionable ingredient might remain (yet here even Rashba will agree that it's not a problem!), or they tell you about release agents or that small amounts of ingredients are not listed on the label, etc. etc. The Rashba indeed holds that these last cases are problematic, but the halakhah is not in accordance with the Rashba.

The hashgachot have raised the bar and are now operating at a chumra level here as well as in other areas. But the average person has no idea about any of this and has never even heard about the concept of bittul. Even if you explain the concept of bittul to him, his response will be: "OK maybe this is the strict halakhah, but I'm not starving so why should I eat something that we had to rely on bittul for. A person who cares about kashrut won't eat something that has even the smallest amount of treif."

Since people haven't been educated about the halakhot, they assume that bittul is a kula to be used in emergency situations, and it is not their fault that they believe this, since this is the view that the kashrut organization hold and publicize.

There is a good article waiting to be written about how in the last thirty years we went from halakhah to chumra when it comes to food issues.

Marc Shapiro

↑ MaBelleVie

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:54 pm

Very interesting, HY. Thanks for posting. I think that should provide some clarity.

↑ zipporah ↓

Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:59 pm

cassandra wrote:

farm wrote:

You are curious about halachos and the sources for the way we pasken things or what I buy, cook or serve in my house?

I don't think the Rashba sounds meikil. It looks to me like it was the Taz. I'm pasting in here for the filtered:

The Consequences: If One Intentionally Nullified A Prohibited Substance

Based on a mishna (Orla 3:8) cited by the gemara (Gitin 54:), most rishonim rule that if one intentionally nullifies an issur, the mixture remains prohibited. This is in order to discourage such behavior. While many rishonim (Rambam, Rosh, etc.) assume that the mixture is prohibited only to the person who nullified the issur, the Rashba insists that the mixture is also prohibited to the party for whom the issur was intentionally nullified (nitbatel bishvilo)! The Shulkhan Arukh accepts the position of the Rashba.

The acharonim debated a fascinating, and very practical, question. Who constitutes "nitbatel bishvilo"? Must the person know that the issur was nullified for his sake? What about a baker who intentionally adds a minute quantity of a non-kosher ingredient to his baked goods? The Taz (Y"D 99:10) rules that while his family may not partake of the food, others may. Rabbi Akiva Eiger (YD 99), though, insists that the food is prohibited.

Some acharonim are more lenient if the baker is not Jewish (see Darkhei Teshuva 108:2).