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farm
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 Wed, Feb 23 2011, 3:57 pm
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Really? I've never seen it, but I'll take a look next time. Thanks.
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zipporah
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Wed, Feb 23 2011, 4:10 pm
| farm wrote: | | Really? I've never seen it, but I'll take a look next time. Thanks. |
If it was in Michigan, it's probably everywhere... now as far as South African vs Australian... that I don't know... I get a whiff, and I run too fast to see the jar clearly.
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farm
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Wed, Feb 23 2011, 4:18 pm
| Quote: | | I get a whiff, and I run too fast to see the jar clearly |
Not for me  but I have a family member who would be so thrilled to find a jar in his mishloach manos.
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cassandra
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Wed, Feb 23 2011, 4:35 pm
| farm wrote: | | Quote: | | bidieved you can eat it. |
That's exactly the point! I'd rather not eat something that b'dieved I can eat. |
But that's not what bidieved means here. It doesn't mean that it's better not to eat it, bidieved means that once it's already there, it's kosher, but it's not kosher to put it in there intentionally to eat.
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cassandra
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Wed, Feb 23 2011, 4:37 pm
| DrMom wrote: | | Raisin wrote: | | DrMom wrote: | | Why aren't Skittles kosher anymore (not that this affects my life at all -- I never liked them)? |
who knows? they went off the list several years back. I guess they changed the recipe or something.
I also thought they were disgusting. |
I was thinking if they just changed some teensy weensy ingredient, then maybe it is kosher (under the Thomy mayo logic), just not hecsherable.
Seems like there would be a huge number of foods which can fall this category. All the candies that are not under hecsher because they use carmine food coloring (yuck)? Heck, food coloring's gotta be in there in a volume proportion less than 1:60, right? Blammo! It's okay to eat. |
Lav davka. The theory behind batel b'shishim is that it won't noticeably change the character of the product, so if something did noticeably change the character of a food (like food coloring) bitul may be problematic.
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farm
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Wed, Feb 23 2011, 4:43 pm
Cassandra, it's actually a machlokes. So let me put it this way-
I'd rather take the stricter stance and not eat something that, according to some, is b'dieved to eat when there is mayonaisse that is l'chatchila to eat, according to all.
sorry for the typo
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Raisin
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Wed, Feb 23 2011, 4:56 pm
| farm wrote: | | Quote: | | I get a whiff, and I run too fast to see the jar clearly |
Not for me but I have a family member who would be so thrilled to find a jar in his mishloach manos. |
just check it is made in South africa and not England. It should have a little BD hechsher on it.
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cassandra
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 1:57 am
| farm wrote: | Cassandra, it's actually a machlokes. So let me put it this way-
I'd rather take the stricter stance and not eat something that, according to some, is b'dieved to eat when there is mayonaisse that is l'chatchila to eat, according to all.
sorry for the typo |
What's the machlokes? Batel b'shishim?
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zipporah
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 2:27 am
| cassandra wrote: | | farm wrote: | Cassandra, it's actually a machlokes. So let me put it this way-
I'd rather take the stricter stance and not eat something that, according to some, is b'dieved to eat when there is mayonaisse that is l'chatchila to eat, according to all.
sorry for the typo |
What's the machlokes? Batel b'shishim? |
I think she meant that if you can notice the change, like a change in color from a dye, maybe that isn't covered by Batel b'shishim, even if the ratio is less than 1:60.
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cassandra
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 2:42 am
| zipporah wrote: | | cassandra wrote: | | farm wrote: | Cassandra, it's actually a machlokes. So let me put it this way-
I'd rather take the stricter stance and not eat something that, according to some, is b'dieved to eat when there is mayonaisse that is l'chatchila to eat, according to all.
sorry for the typo |
What's the machlokes? Batel b'shishim? |
I think she meant that if you can notice the change, like a change in color from a dye, maybe that isn't covered by Batel b'shishim, even if the ratio is less than 1:60. |
I know. There are certain conditions for batel b'shishim, and that isn't the machlokes (I was the one who wrote about that a few posts ago actually-- things like changing the taste, or if it changes the texture, etc., and color might be part of that.) That doesn't seem to be the case with the mayonnaise either-- it seems to be saying that she wouldn't anything that was batel b'shishim unless she had no choice, and she says it's a machlokes whether you can or not, but that doesn't make much sense to me, so I'm curious how she defines the machlokes.
Btw, I am not European and I hate mayonnaise. I just find this discussion fascinating.
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DrMom
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 2:46 am
Okay, so the dye was davka a poor example.
My point is: In the US, I am sure there are many mass-produced foods that are not granted hecshers only because they have small quantities of trief in them. Most frum Jews in the US wouldn't consider putting them in their mouths, but under the logic used to permit Thomy, these foods could appear on permissible lists issued by European rabbanim (if they were available in Europe).
If I were to travel to Europe, knowing I am in hecsher no-man's-land, I would arm myself with one of these lists, see the food listed, and think to myself, "Wow, the European manufacturing line for <item> is kosher! Who knew?" and (if it's something that appealed to me) I would eat it. And the very same stuff sitting on US supermarket shelves most frum Jews would consider forbidden. If it were something small, I might even take some back for my US friends, 'Hey, ever want to try <item>? Look! The European version is kosher. Want some?"
I am just contemplating the strangeness of this situation.
I understand that in certain communities in Europe, companies have no incentive to get hecshers. I really appreciate how fortunate Jews are in the US (or Israel, for that matter) where food with a clear hecsher is readily available!
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zipporah
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 2:48 am
| cassandra wrote: | | zipporah wrote: | | cassandra wrote: | | farm wrote: | Cassandra, it's actually a machlokes. So let me put it this way-
I'd rather take the stricter stance and not eat something that, according to some, is b'dieved to eat when there is mayonaisse that is l'chatchila to eat, according to all.
sorry for the typo |
What's the machlokes? Batel b'shishim? |
I think she meant that if you can notice the change, like a change in color from a dye, maybe that isn't covered by Batel b'shishim, even if the ratio is less than 1:60. |
I know. There are certain conditions for batel b'shishim, and that isn't the machlokes (I was the one who wrote about that a few posts ago actually-- things like changing the taste, or if it changes the texture, etc., and color might be part of that.) That doesn't seem to be the case with the mayonnaise either-- it seems to be saying that she wouldn't anything that was batel b'shishim unless she had no choice, and she says it's a machlokes whether you can or not, but that doesn't make much sense to me, so I'm curious how she defines the machlokes.
Btw, I am not European and I hate mayonnaise. I just find this discussion fascinating. |
Oh... I just took her reply to reference your statement not the whole concept...
I like mayo, welll... I like Miracle Whip, and I'll take Mayo... but I don't use enough of it on any one thing to really notice if one is extra special.
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cassandra
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 3:01 am
| DrMom wrote: | Okay, so the dye was davka a poor example.
My point is: In the US, I am sure there are many mass-produced foods that are not granted hecshers only because they have small quantities of trief in them. Most frum Jews in the US wouldn't consider putting them in their mouths, but under the logic used to permit Thomy, these foods could appear on permissible lists issued by European rabbanim (if they were available in Europe).
If I were to travel to Europe, knowing I am in hecsher no-man's-land, I would arm myself with one of these lists, see the food listed, and think to myself, "Wow, the European manufacturing line for <item> is kosher! Who knew?" and (if it's something that appealed to me) I would eat it. And the very same stuff sitting on US supermarket shelves most frum Jews would consider forbidden. If it were something small, I might even take some back for my US friends, 'Hey, ever want to try <item>? Look! The European version is kosher. Want some?"
I am just contemplating the strangeness of this situation.
I understand that in certain communities in Europe, companies have no incentive to get hecshers. I really appreciate how fortunate Jews are in the US (or Israel, for that matter) where food with a clear hecsher is readily available! |
Look, I don't know enough about kashrus work to answer this, but it is possible that there are hechshered items in the US that do have traces of non-kosher ingredients in them. I'm not sure that the logic of hechsher vs. non-hechshered being the cut off that allows batel b'shishim is entirely accurate, especially if there are rabbis who observe the process-- essentially that's what all kashrus organizations do. Maybe a company like Lieber's or Gefen couldn't do it, or maybe in Israel they couldn't do it, but a national brand wouldn't have this issue since the number of Jewish consumers are small, and a hechsher doesn't mean they are making it for Jews. This whole thread I've been confused about the nafka mina between a symbol and a list if there is a Jewish presence there observing the process.
But like I said, I don't know too much about this, but I do know people in kashrus so I'm going to look into it further.
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zipporah
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 3:48 am
| cassandra wrote: | | DrMom wrote: | Okay, so the dye was davka a poor example.
My point is: In the US, I am sure there are many mass-produced foods that are not granted hecshers only because they have small quantities of trief in them. Most frum Jews in the US wouldn't consider putting them in their mouths, but under the logic used to permit Thomy, these foods could appear on permissible lists issued by European rabbanim (if they were available in Europe).
If I were to travel to Europe, knowing I am in hecsher no-man's-land, I would arm myself with one of these lists, see the food listed, and think to myself, "Wow, the European manufacturing line for <item> is kosher! Who knew?" and (if it's something that appealed to me) I would eat it. And the very same stuff sitting on US supermarket shelves most frum Jews would consider forbidden. If it were something small, I might even take some back for my US friends, 'Hey, ever want to try <item>? Look! The European version is kosher. Want some?"
I am just contemplating the strangeness of this situation.
I understand that in certain communities in Europe, companies have no incentive to get hecshers. I really appreciate how fortunate Jews are in the US (or Israel, for that matter) where food with a clear hecsher is readily available! |
Look, I don't know enough about kashrus work to answer this, but it is possible that there are hechshered items in the US that do have traces of non-kosher ingredients in them. I'm not sure that the logic of hechsher vs. non-hechshered being the cut off that allows batel b'shishim is entirely accurate, especially if there are rabbis who observe the process-- essentially that's what all kashrus organizations do. Maybe a company like Lieber's or Gefen couldn't do it, or maybe in Israel they couldn't do it, but a national brand wouldn't have this issue since the number of Jewish consumers are small, and a hechsher doesn't mean they are making it for Jews. This whole thread I've been confused about the nafka mina between a symbol and a list if there is a Jewish presence there observing the process.
But like I said, I don't know too much about this, but I do know people in kashrus so I'm going to look into it further. |
Thanks Cassandra!
This has got me thinking about if there are processed foods that are for sure kosher and but don't want a hechsher to avoid the "Jew Tax" symbol. Kind of like the Kellogg's K but even more hard core. Anybody know of those?
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yo'ma
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 6:06 am
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On the kashrus list, does it say batul b'shishim? On our kashrus list, it lists that for whichever product is.
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zipporah
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 6:14 am
| yo'ma wrote: | | On the kashrus list, does it say batul b'shishim? On our kashrus list, it lists that for whichever product is. |
What list? For a city or a shul?
I didn't see a notice about that for the Thomy mayo on the Swiss list.
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Raisin
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 6:17 am
| DrMom wrote: | Okay, so the dye was davka a poor example.
My point is: In the US, I am sure there are many mass-produced foods that are not granted hecshers only because they have small quantities of trief in them. Most frum Jews in the US wouldn't consider putting them in their mouths, but under the logic used to permit Thomy, these foods could appear on permissible lists issued by European rabbanim (if they were available in Europe).
If I were to travel to Europe, knowing I am in hecsher no-man's-land, I would arm myself with one of these lists, see the food listed, and think to myself, "Wow, the European manufacturing line for <item> is kosher! Who knew?" and (if it's something that appealed to me) I would eat it. And the very same stuff sitting on US supermarket shelves most frum Jews would consider forbidden. If it were something small, I might even take some back for my US friends, 'Hey, ever want to try <item>? Look! The European version is kosher. Want some?"
I am just contemplating the strangeness of this situation.
I understand that in certain communities in Europe, companies have no incentive to get hecshers. I really appreciate how fortunate Jews are in the US (or Israel, for that matter) where food with a clear hecsher is readily available! |
kashrus lists only refer to the locally made products. And so does the OU symbol. If its not there, don't eat it. European Snapple and pringles are clearly listed as treif, since people are so used to them being kosher. I can get cheerios in my country which are kosher, the ones sold where Sarahd lives are not kosher (made in a different factory) But kellogs cereals have a hechsher all over Europe. It depends if something is made in one country and imported, or there are factories in each country or area.
You can actually get a lot of stuff with hechsherim now.
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yo'ma
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 6:18 am
| zipporah wrote: | | yo'ma wrote: | | On the kashrus list, does it say batul b'shishim? On our kashrus list, it lists that for whichever product is. |
What list? For a city or a shul?
I didn't see a notice about that for the Thomy mayo on the Swiss list. |
For one of the hechsherim here, they have a website with a kosher list.
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sarahd
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 7:53 am
| cassandra wrote: |
Look, I don't know enough about kashrus work to answer this, but it is possible that there are hechshered items in the US that do have traces of non-kosher ingredients in them. I'm not sure that the logic of hechsher vs. non-hechshered being the cut off that allows batel b'shishim is entirely accurate, especially if there are rabbis who observe the process-- essentially that's what all kashrus organizations do. Maybe a company like Lieber's or Gefen couldn't do it, or maybe in Israel they couldn't do it, but a national brand wouldn't have this issue since the number of Jewish consumers are small, and a hechsher doesn't mean they are making it for Jews. This whole thread I've been confused about the nafka mina between a symbol and a list if there is a Jewish presence there observing the process.
But like I said, I don't know too much about this, but I do know people in kashrus so I'm going to look into it further. |
There is no Jewish presence observing the manufacture of items on the kosher list. The ingredient list and manufacturing process is checked out and if it's satisfactory, the item makes it on to the list. But no one is standing and watching how the stuff is manufactured.
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cassandra
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Thu, Feb 24 2011, 8:26 am
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And I'm sure that's true for some hechshered products in the US as well. I don't think any symbol necessarily means that there was a mashgiach overseeing the process (though I'm sure that is true in many cases as well)
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