Please advise - cynical, negative class w discipline issues

amother ↓

Thu, Jan 06 2011, 11:53 pm

I teach elementary school. In my class there are a few class leaders who lead the class in E/T. They are very cynical and have negative attitutes about everything! When they behave nicely -the rest of the class follows, and when they are in a bad mood, or annoyed about something I did or said they misbehave and the rest of the class follows suit. I have been forced to resort to being very strict -sending girls out of class to the principal far more often then I'd like. I feel like the positive upbeat atmesphere I so hard tried to establish is completely ruined. I put a crazy amount of time and effort into teaching in a fun, creative manner yet still covering a lot of material and keeping everyone busy. I feel like everything is just spit back in my face. Whenever I do something creative / fun they find something to complain about. I was hoping to be a different sort of teacher then the ones I had. One who will motivate her students thru positive means, and have an upbeat classroom. I started off the year firm -but didn't resort to punishment. When a student misbehaved I gave a look, called their name, walked over to their desk etc. I aslo used class and individual motivations, bonuses and prizes. I aslo created opportunities for girls to be leaders -they were very excited, but I didn't see concrete results even tho I was clear in my expectations. These class leaders decided they wanted fun or attention -don't know what it is, and once they misbehaved every one copied (there's a very strong amount of peer pressure). The less popular girls misbehave to get their attention. I tried speaking to girls individually. It helped -for maybe a day... I am being forced to become stricter by the day -and wish I had a better way. We're only half way thru the year and I am totally burned out!!! Please advise ASAP!

Karnash

Fri, Jan 07 2011, 2:15 am

This may be a little Machiavellian - but "divide and conquer."

Try to break up the alliance to weaken their powers of leadership.

How do you do that? Choose a few members of the group (less than half) - those you think are most open to you, and try to separate them from the group with positive attention - small rewards for jobs well done, notes to parents saying how well their daughter is doing....You can't be too obvious, but be persistent. If you can chip away at their cohesiveness, the group will crumble.

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Jan 07 2011, 5:33 am

OP, I totally hear you.
BTDT

I came nto the class and it was unbearable, they were SO disrespectfull, that they would literaly ignore me!
(these girls were chassidishe 7 and 8 year olds) - I had no idea of how to solve the situation (all classes I taught before were average or nice)

I decided that either they will break me or will be VERY strict.

the first time I was just quiet I tried niecely and let them play, cos there was no "nice" way of making them listen.
I had no way to get attention except when I yelled. ok so I did that.

the second time I came, I banged the door, teh girls didnt expect that. I said: "great, now that you are quiet you better listen" d I explained to them taht I am on TEIR side, that I am a fair player, but for that there MUST BE RULES! I am very sorry having to raise my voice upon the, cos this breaks voice chords, and I would much rather sing with them songs, but if they dont listen, there is no other way.

I also said that I leave it up to them. either they proove tme that they will folow ules and then they will get a reward, OR they wil be disciplined in the way that I currently do oit: they wil be yeledat and class will boring.

I love to compromise, I am not a dictator, but in order to communicate we have to listen. you and me.

yes they were shocked, yes they hated it probay, but the next lessons and weeks were MCUH nicer. and every revard,smile, kind word, etc. I gave them they REALLY apprecited. we could learn ncely. by the end of the term this clas was NOT a problem at all. very soon we learned to liek eac oter very much.

I dont think this is the right way to start a teacher-stdent relationship, but this class was SO loud, and SO undisciplined that with "normal kind" behaviour I got abslutely nowehere. ones they had a set of rules it worked smoothley, and both sides enjoyed it Smile

this

Stepmum

Fri, Jan 07 2011, 6:46 am

Do you have a reward system? I had a difficult Chumash group (10 year old girls and boys), who were extremely noisy and hard to keep on task.

I introduced a sticker system - I stick a bunch of small stickers on my hand, and when I notice a child participating nicely, I'll give them one which they then stick at the back fo their books. (I either stick the sticker onto the child's arm, or directly into the back of their book.) This does not stop the flow of the class, which I find useful. When they get 10 stickers they can choose a prize from the box.

I've been amazed at the difference in the classroom. The children get so excited about their stickers - I couldn't believe that 10 year old boys would want stickers so much! I've also told them that at a certain date, whoever has 40 stickers will be able to join in a special class activity.

The only downside I've seen with this is that I tend to overlook the quiet, really good kids, and am quick to reward the difficult kids. I need to work on this, and perhaps, at the end of the lesson, give those really good kids an extra sticker for behaving all lesson.

BTW, I only teach these kids twice a week, an hour each time, so the number 10 is sustainable - takes enough time to earn, but not so long that they lose focus. You have to figure out what works for you.

Isramom8

Fri, Jan 07 2011, 7:23 am

That is so frustrating, when you are putting every effort into making a great class atmosphere! It's good that there are teachers around who still care!

You may have to lower your expectations by a lot and compliment the little good they do. You may begin to see some good too, if you expect pretty much nothing amazing.

I'd also suggest reading Ruchoma Shain's Reaching the Stars. She had a burning desire to teach but was totally unprepared, and kids walked all over her. Then she got more experienced. Very cool book.

What grade is this, by the way?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 9:19 pm

Thank you all for your replies!!
It's nice to have a place to vent and get advise.
It's funny -but many of the ideas suggested I've already done.
I started off shwoing I meant business, but was still easy going and let too many things slide.
Like the poster who mentioned she became very strict -I did the same.
I now have a system that every disturbance causes their name to be circled. 3X's their name's circled -and they're sent straight to the principal. To soften the blow -at the end of the week all the uncircled names go into a raffle to earn a privilege (I.e. no home-work, eating pass etc. -there is one winner every week.) The problem is -even having every girl disturb twice is a lot, and it's hard every other minute to be on top of it, circling names as I'm teaching. Also -a lot of it's an attitute prob. that runs undercurrent, or a negative tone of voice etc.
Today was horrible. They came to school in the mood of 'making trouble;, and decided everything I touch they would consider contaminated -(I don't know this forsure, just what it seemed), after touching the board, teachers desk, door handle etc. they washed, or wiped their hands in obvious ways, and touched e/t only with the tips of their fingers. At the end of the period I was so annoyed that when the 'class queen' made a whole scene of opening the door I made her wash it with soap and water Twisted Evil

!
Whenver I do a fun acticity / game / experiment they behave the worst, I had a serious talk with them, and stopped one game in order to give them an assignment instead, and told them very sternly that I will have to stop doing fun things... it helped... for maybe 3 days. Now I think 10 times before every fun thing I plan. Unfortunatley my classes are getting more boring beacuse of this (I beleve school should be fun, oh well), and I feel myself constantly punishing, threatning -and losing my natural positive attitute. (Doing all the things I believe shouldn't be done.) In addtition whenever I am very strict they respond by being in 'bad moods' and grouching all day, even if just one student is punished and really deserved to be. So every time a student crosses the line I know I need to be very strict, but I also know the rest of the class will be lost, so I'ts a loose-loose situation embarrassed

.
And yes - I have reward systems. We have a class reward which they earned once in the begining of the year, they were very excited then -but they haven't earned it in weeks (months?) Every 20 days of good class behavior = special trip.) I also have individual incentives -they save up for prizes, and get excited on the day prizes are given, but it barely affects behavior day before or after.
I am trying very hard to compliment them -but it's very hard to find good things to say (I can't beleive I'm saying such a thing, but that's how I feel.)
Regarding breaking them up -there is one leader who everyone follows, the peer pressure is unbelievably strong, and it is really hard to get them to do anything different. Unless the 'class queen' has a drastic change of heart I doubt I can have much effect on the others. Also they're a small class which gives me less girls to work with. There's the class queen, her close advisors as I dubbed them Confused

, and the nebachs who do everything to be a part of the class queens group. I feel horrible saying this -I'm usually VERY against labeling, but practically speaking this is the sitch. If I would win over the class queen maybe things would improve -don't know how to do it, wouldn't want it to backfire and make things worse...
These kids are 9 by the way.
Keep the advice coming!
THANKS!!

mummiedearest ↓

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 9:27 pm

can you give the ring-leaders extra responsibilities when they start up?

"oh, malka, I need you to be the pencil-sharpening monitor today." if she doesn't jump to it, give the privilege away to someone else. most kids like having a monitor assignment, and if you distract them with that when you see trouble brewing, it may settle the class a bit. come up with a list of random monitor jobs, but don't make a sign or schedule. make new ones up occasionally to keep things interesting. and make sure to give these jobs to other kids too. you don't want to "play favorites."

if you run out of monitor assignments, you can send her to the school secretary with a note. arrange with the secretary that she'll send the kid back with a few paper clips. there's no punishment involved, but it gets the trouble maker out of the class for two minutes. in that time, the tension should break.

↑ mummiedearest

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 9:31 pm

oh, I also think you should have them run laps. when everyone gets difficult, stop what you're doing. say, "ok, folks, time to run around the classroom. let's see who can run the most laps around the desks before I blow the whistle." give the winner a "fastest runner" certificate or something equally meaningless. some kids just have too much energy.

marina ↓

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 9:54 pm

I would do the following:

1. Get the queen bee on your side. You can try to do it nicely, with a behavior contract or extra project and the like, or strictly, with involving her parents, etc. Whichever way will work.

2. Use the peer pressure to your advantage. Break up the class into several groups and award points to each group and subtract points from each group as a whole. Make sure that the queen bee and her advisors are each in a separate group and make sure that initially the rewards are daily ( the group with the most points today gets... extra recess/soda/free homework night) and then weekly. (Note: if they are really, really horrible, keep the queen bee and her advisors in their own group, but that is very risky).

3. Keep the majority of the class rigid and boring for now, but work on a project with them that is creative and interesting, maybe once or twice a week. This is not for them, this is for you, so that you feel like you are doing your job as a good teacher. Do not make this creative activity dependent on their behavior.

*Use the cynicism to your advantage if you can in the activity itself ( I.e. have them critique a book and write the ending differently, have them take turns teaching a lesson from the social studies book and assigning and grading homework)

*See if you can have the activity a contest/group presentation format so they have to compete against each other and definitely have the class leaders separated.

Also, WHERE IS YOUR PRINCIPAL? Do you have support from your administration? Do you get in trouble for sending kids to the office?

Fox ↓

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:21 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

I'd also suggest reading Ruchoma Shain's Reaching the Stars. She had a burning desire to teach but was totally unprepared, and kids walked all over her. Then she got more experienced. Very cool book.

Please, please do not read or take advice from this book! Without criticizing Mrs. Shain, many of the techniques she suggests were applicable to a different time and place (and I'm not 100 percent certain they were the best solutions then, either).

I actually banned this book from my own home, and when my DDs brought it home from the school library, I immediately confiscated it, returned it myself, and asked that it be placed on the "non-kosher" list for my children. Not that I feel strongly, or anything! LOL

amother wrote:

I have been forced to resort to being very strict -sending girls out of class to the principal far more often then I'd like.

Let me start by explaining my "qualifications" for what I'm going to suggest: I taught in post-secondary schools for 18 years. My specialty was teaching what were then known as "high risk" students, and I'm not talking about Jewish kids flirting with ham sandwiches. I'm talking about kids from Chicago's worst public housing projects (anyone remember Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor Homes?). I also taught in Jewish schools, including a year teaching junior high girls. Just for the record, the Jewish girls were every bit as challenging as the drop-out gang members!

Who's the Boss?!
If I could change one single behavior among teachers in Jewish day schools, I would tell them to stop sending kids to the principal. I don't care how disruptive or deserving a student is, you are sending a very clear message to the entire class when you send a kid to principal: "I have lost control or I never had it to begin with."

So if this has become your discipline of last resort, remove it from your repertoire immediately. BTW, it also sends the same message to the principal, and you really don't want that!

How Do You Get Your Mother's Goat?
You find out where it's tied, of course. And that's precisely what students do. They find your weakest spots; your unfulfilled hopes and dreams; your secret fears and insecurities -- and then they pounce! In your case, the Queen Bee has accurately sensed your desire to be a positive, upbeat, creative teacher. Her response: make sure everything you do falls flat!

The remedy to this problem is not more discipline -- that's the very feedback that Miss Queen Bee is seeking! It means that her little missiles of negativity are reaching their target! Instead, you need to cultivate a more blase attitude. Be a little more aloof, and try to give the impression that you're just stopping off to teach on the way to your fabulous, exciting, thrilling life. Of course, don't tell the girls anything about this fascinating life you lead -- just act as if you're truly above their little shenanigans and hardly notice them.

If Miss Queen Bee can't get a bead on your weak spots, she'll start by simply engaging in scattershot attempts to derail things. This will be unpleasant, but not as unpleasant as taking shots to belly, as it were. Again, remain pleasant but aloof during this phase -- the worst is almost over. Torturing someone who doesn't seem to realize she's being tortured is not as much fun -- for Miss Queen Bee or her loyal court. The hangers-on usually lose interest at this point, too. Even worse than torturing someone who doesn't show any response to the torture is trying to torture someone who regards your efforts as silly and slightly pitiful.

OP, you mention that you make an effort to try to do fun, enjoyable activities. This is wonderful, of course, but I have a feeling that Miss Queen Bee as well as other can see how hard you're trying. Don't wear your heart on your sleeve.

Tragedy Tomorrow, Comedy Tonight!

amother wrote:

Today was horrible. They came to school in the mood of 'making trouble;, and decided everything I touch they would consider contaminated -(I don't know this forsure, just what it seemed), after touching the board, teachers desk, door handle etc. they washed, or wiped their hands in obvious ways, and touched e/t only with the tips of their fingers. At the end of the period I was so annoyed that when the 'class queen' made a whole scene of opening the door I made her wash it with soap and water

This isn't horrible! This is hilarious! And you need to demonstrate to Miss Queen Bee and her loyal subjects just what silly, adorable little muffins they are.

Here's what I would have done: as soon as the game was afoot, I would say, "I know some of you haven't received your vaccination for teacher cooties this year, and I want to make sure you don't get accidentally infected. If you haven't had your vaccination yet, please take out a paper and write, "Teacher Cootie Victim." Here's some tape to put it on your desk to make sure I don't accidentally infect you."

Now, I'd up the ante: I'd go ahead with whatever activity I planned, but I'd make an effort to "accidentally" touch various items. Each time, I'd apologize profusely, asking the "victim" if she'd received her vaccination yet. Really play it up.

Within a little while, you have Miss Queen Bee sitting with a ridiculous sign on her desk -- that just happens to include the word, "victim." You also have everybody laughing at the whole stupid plot. So who won? Not Miss Queen Bee, whose planned torture was deemed hilarious by you. And you've managed to show that you're far, far above her immature efforts to upset you.

Let me tell you how I handled a similar problem: girls in my class would leave for the bathroom. A bathroom pass proved ineffective -- they would claim that they had to go right now! What was I going to do? Argue? But you can imagine the result? Within 20 minutes, I could easily lose half the class! So one day, I was extremely lenient in letting everyone go. The clock ticked on, and sure enough, about half the girls were in the bathroom. So I told the remaining girls to take a break in the classroom while I picked up my materials and walked into the bathroom.

I proceeded to teach in the bathroom. I didn't chastise them or threaten them; I acted like this was a perfectly normal way to hold class (and fortunately, I was able to teach something that could be discussed in the bathroom!) From that point forward, the girls more or less policed themselves. Oh, sure, occasionally it would get out of hand, but one of them would always say to her friend, "You better tell everyone to come back. Otherwise Mrs. Fox will start teaching in the bathroom again."

Pedagogy versus Androgogy
My other suggestion is one that often raises eyebrows. IMHO, many teachers and administrators in Jewish schools have assumptions that make no sense whatsoever. Moreoever, they treat the kids in ways that they would never treat adult students (and if you think adult students are motivated and cooperative? Well, let me know how that goes for you!).

For example, the business of keeping everyone quiet while the teacher presents material. If you can manage 5-7 minutes of quiet, then you're doing phenomenally! We don't expect graduate students to sit for hours at a time, concentrating on a professor's lecture. Why would kids be any better at it?

A few ideas:

* Teach small groups at a time while the others learn "b'chavrusa." Yes, there will be lots of time wasted. Compared to what?

* Instead of presenting new material through lecture, developed programmed instruction materials for certain concepts.

* Let students rearrange their desks to suit their own whims from time to time.

* Forget about getting Miss Queen Bee to erase the board. Make her teach! Give each girl (or team of girls) a topic; help them prepare (if they want your assistance); and let them do the heavy lifting. There will be lots of giggling and mayhem, but who cares? BTW, I've seen this used with kids as young as 2nd grade!

In other words, adjust your attitude to think of your students as subordinates with whom you must get along -- not people who must behave to your liking at all times. Show respect not by paying compliments, but by treating them as if they were a necessary part of your team.

Hatzlacha!

↑ marina

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:30 pm

excellent post fox.

OP, ignore whatever I wrote in my post and just listen to fox.

This was my favorite part:

Quote:

Be a little more aloof, and try to give the impression that you're just stopping off to teach on the way to your fabulous, exciting, thrilling life. Of course, don't tell the girls anything about this fascinating life you lead -- just act as if you're truly above their little shenanigans and hardly notice them.

das ↓

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:37 pm

Hi, taught for years....and my principal used to give me the tough classes. I didnt read all the posts so I dont know if my advice will be redundant.
Some basic tips:
1. Never create a discipline program-minuses etc this way your showing you anticipate "trouble." and shows a lack of confidence in yourself.

2. Never ever discipline a class at onece with speeches etc....All discipline must be individual and preferabley take place outside the classroom.

3. You need to maintain a positive atmosphere and ooze confidence. But you have to be very firm. If you promise a reward or punishment never say something twice. They have to know your word is your word. No double warnings.

Hope this helps....

↑ Fox ↓

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:37 pm

marina wrote:

excellent post fox.

Hey, thanks, Marina!

And does anyone here know if Yael gives an award for the longest post ever? What do I get as a prize?

sequoia

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:40 pm

Fox wrote:

marina wrote:

excellent post fox.

Hey, thanks, Marina!

And does anyone here know if Yael gives an award for the longest post ever? What do I get as a prize?

The Elements of Style?

↑ das

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:40 pm

(quote Today was horrible. They came to school in the mood of 'making trouble;, and decided everything I touch they would consider contaminated -(I don't know this forsure, just what it seemed), after touching the board, teachers desk, door handle etc. they washed, or wiped their hands in obvious ways, and touched e/t only with the tips of their fingers. At the end of the period I was so annoyed that when the 'class queen' made a whole scene of opening the door I made her wash it with soap and water Twisted Evil

!
quote]

Oy... never acknowldege something like this.. You have to completely ignore it-as if you didn't notice it. You made their days by having the girl wash her hands.... Now they have incentive to think of more things to get your goat!

↑ Fox ↓

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:43 pm

sequoia wrote:

The Elements of Style?

Or force me to post via Twitter, where I'd be limited to 144 characters!

Tue, Jan 18 2011, 11:49 pm

to everything that Fox said!

I just wanted to mention that what I quoted below is very negative and shaming a child never works in the long run.
I say giving children points for good behavior is a better tactic, and its better to make it private (like a savings passbook or passport) where you quietly pass out stickers for them to place in their booklet when you catch them in the act of behaving well. This makes good behavior a personal accomplishment and not an 'Im better than you are' competition. You can also award prizes for number of stickers.
Raffles suck because when you dont win it seems so unfair. I always seems like you never win and someone else is always winning. Random is not an easy concept.

amother wrote:

I now have a system that every disturbance causes their name to be circled. 3X's their name's circled -and they're sent straight to the principal. To soften the blow -at the end of the week all the uncircled names go into a raffle to earn a privilege (I.e. no home-work, eating pass etc. -there is one winner every week.) The problem is -even having every girl disturb twice is a lot, and it's hard every other minute to be on top of it, circling names as I'm teaching. Also -a lot of it's an attitute prob. that runs undercurrent, or a negative tone of voice etc.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 19 2011, 1:39 am

I totally feel for you. This sounds a lot like my dd's class Crying

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Jan 23 2011, 12:57 pm

I'm the amother above. I just want to add that I didn't mean to imply it was dds' class. I haven't heard of any of those specific events happening and anyway, her class is not small. I just meant it sounds similar because the class setup is similar (queen bees, ladies in waiting, etc.) and they also have a reputation for being difficult.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2011, 3:38 pm

I'm answering in the quote below to make it simpler... my replies are bolded (OP).

Please, please do not read or take advice from this book! Without criticizing Mrs. Shain, many of the techniques she suggests were applicable to a different time and place (and I'm not 100 percent certain they were the best solutions then, either).

Now u got me really curious to read the book, lol, but after hearing that I won't order it. I was about to after reading the post suggesting it.

I actually banned this book from my own home, and when my DDs brought it home from the school library, I immediately confiscated it, returned it myself, and asked that it be placed on the "non-kosher" list for my children. Not that I feel strongly, or anything! LOL

amother wrote:

I have been forced to resort to being very strict -sending girls out of class to the principal far more often then I'd like.

Let me start by explaining my "qualifications" for what I'm going to suggest: I taught in post-secondary schools for 18 years. My specialty was teaching what were then known as "high risk" students, and I'm not talking about Jewish kids flirting with ham sandwiches. I'm talking about kids from Chicago's worst public housing projects (anyone remember Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor Homes?). I also taught in Jewish schools, including a year teaching junior high girls. Just for the record, the Jewish girls were every bit as challenging as the drop-out gang members!

Whoa!
Who's the Boss?!
If I could change one single behavior among teachers in Jewish day schools, I would tell them to stop sending kids to the principal. I don't care how disruptive or deserving a student is, you are sending a very clear message to the entire class when you send a kid to principal: "I have lost control or I never had it to begin with."

So if this has become your discipline of last resort, remove it from your repertoire immediately. BTW, it also sends the same message to the principal, and you really don't want that!

I completely agree with you, I ended up doing it b/c the other methods I tried didn't seem to be working. Can you suggest alternatives for serious misbehavior (ie. repeated talking in Chutzpadik / inapropriate ways after repeated rquests / warnings to stop?)
And yikes! That's kind of what I've been doing the last couple of months, and the only thing the girls seem to be influenced by, what do I do now?? What should I use to replace it? The girls are already used to misbehaving = principals office, basically I've dug myself into a rut...

How Do You Get Your Mother's Goat?
You find out where it's tied, of course. And that's precisely what students do. They find your weakest spots; your unfulfilled hopes and dreams; your secret fears and insecurities -- and then they pounce! In your case, the Queen Bee has accurately sensed your desire to be a positive, upbeat, creative teacher. Her response: make sure everything you do falls flat!

The remedy to this problem is not more discipline -- that's the very feedback that Miss Queen Bee is seeking! It means that her little missiles of negativity are reaching their target! Instead, you need to cultivate a more blase attitude. Be a little more aloof, and try to give the impression that you're just stopping off to teach on the way to your fabulous, exciting, thrilling life. Of course, don't tell the girls anything about this fascinating life you lead -- just act as if you're truly above their little shenanigans and hardly notice them.

Very interesting psychology, that definately gave me a new perspective! I usually start off by ignoring, but gets to the point where I feel forced to act. I.e. a student speaks to another and I ignore it, either the kid starts talking really loudly / disrupting, or others will join in. Or a student is eating, I'll just turn a blind eye -then she'll start making a whole show with her food / bag or share with friends. I feel they force me to discipline -which fits with what u said, but OTOH how can I just ignore it?

If Miss Queen Bee can't get a bead on your weak spots, she'll start by simply engaging in scattershot attempts to derail things. This will be unpleasant, but not as unpleasant as taking shots to belly, as it were. Again, remain pleasant but aloof during this phase -- the worst is almost over. Torturing someone who doesn't seem to realize she's being tortured is not as much fun -- for Miss Queen Bee or her loyal court. The hangers-on usually lose interest at this point, too. Even worse than torturing someone who doesn't show any response to the torture is trying to torture someone who regards your efforts as silly and slightly pitiful.

OP, you mention that you make an effort to try to do fun, enjoyable activities. This is wonderful, of course, but I have a feeling that Miss Queen Bee as well as other can see how hard you're trying. Don't wear your heart on your sleeve.

Tragedy Tomorrow, Comedy Tonight!

amother wrote:

This isn't horrible! This is hilarious! And you need to demonstrate to Miss Queen Bee and her loyal subjects just what silly, adorable little muffins they are.

Here's what I would have done: as soon as the game was afoot, I would say, "I know some of you haven't received your vaccination for teacher cooties this year, and I want to make sure you don't get accidentally infected. If you haven't had your vaccination yet, please take out a paper and write, "Teacher Cootie Victim." Here's some tape to put it on your desk to make sure I don't accidentally infect you."

Now, I'd up the ante: I'd go ahead with whatever activity I planned, but I'd make an effort to "accidentally" touch various items. Each time, I'd apologize profusely, asking the "victim" if she'd received her vaccination yet. Really play it up.

Within a little while, you have Miss Queen Bee sitting with a ridiculous sign on her desk -- that just happens to include the word, "victim." You also have everybody laughing at the whole stupid plot. So who won? Not Miss Queen Bee, whose planned torture was deemed hilarious by you. And you've managed to show that you're far, far above her immature efforts to upset you.

Love it! That was a great response, real classy :-). In truth that was my attitute in the beggining. In the first couple of week of school one day they decided to look spaced out and completely ignore me 9I heard them whispering this plan to each other at beg. of class). So I sat down in the teachers desk, and lounged out with the most spaced out look I could muster, with in 30 seconds the whole class was smiling. "I got a message that I was supposed to look spaced out", I said simply. The class giggled and then class continued like normal. I don't know at what point my attitude changed -I don't mind the jokes / or fun, it's the negativity that makes me absolutly crazy, a negativity to school, my class, each other, and myself, don't know how to just ignore it. They complain about EVERYTHING!

Let me tell you how I handled a similar problem: girls in my class would leave for the bathroom. A bathroom pass proved ineffective -- they would claim that they had to go right now! What was I going to do? Argue? But you can imagine the result? Within 20 minutes, I could easily lose half the class! So one day, I was extremely lenient in letting everyone go. The clock ticked on, and sure enough, about half the girls were in the bathroom. So I told the remaining girls to take a break in the classroom while I picked up my materials and walked into the bathroom.

I proceeded to teach in the bathroom. I didn't chastise them or threaten them; I acted like this was a perfectly normal way to hold class (and fortunately, I was able to teach something that could be discussed in the bathroom!) From that point forward, the girls more or less policed themselves. Oh, sure, occasionally it would get out of hand, but one of them would always say to her friend, "You better tell everyone to come back. Otherwise Mrs. Fox will start teaching in the bathroom again."

LOL

Pedagogy versus Androgogy
My other suggestion is one that often raises eyebrows. IMHO, many teachers and administrators in Jewish schools have assumptions that make no sense whatsoever. Moreoever, they treat the kids in ways that they would never treat adult students (and if you think adult students are motivated and cooperative? Well, let me know how that goes for you!).

For example, the business of keeping everyone quiet while the teacher presents material. If you can manage 5-7 minutes of quiet, then you're doing phenomenally! We don't expect graduate students to sit for hours at a time, concentrating on a professor's lecture. Why would kids be any better at it?

A few ideas:

* Teach small groups at a time while the others learn "b'chavrusa." Yes, there will be lots of time wasted. Compared to what?

I tried Chavrusaa's for a number of weeks, either having them review material learned, or doing worksheets etc. It was a disaster. Half of them don't get along with each other, and they ended up doing nothing. Now I hardly do it any more.

* Instead of presenting new material through lecture, developed programmed instruction materials for certain concepts.

Can you elaborate on this?

* Let students rearrange their desks to suit their own whims from time to time.

* Forget about getting Miss Queen Bee to erase the board. Make her teach! Give each girl (or team of girls) a topic; help them prepare (if they want your assistance); and let them do the heavy lifting. There will be lots of giggling and mayhem, but who cares? BTW, I've seen this used with kids as young as 2nd grade!

In other words, adjust your attitude to think of your students as subordinates with whom you must get along -- not people who must behave to your liking at all times. Show respect not by paying compliments, but by treating them as if they were a necessary part of your team.

Hatzlacha![/quote]

Thank you so much Fox, I feel hopeful already! Can you advise step by step what you would advise now? Basically I'm in a big rut, I feel I've gone from positive, upbeat and creative to unmotivated, negative, disciplinarian with ineffective discipline methods (if that makes any sense), I also find myself using threats and sending to principal too often -although I think both methods are wrong. What do I do about current methods of consequences -just stop them? And how should I replace them?

Gotta run - my kids crying, I'll be back later with more questions...