Leash-Tzaar Baalei Chaim

Merrymom ↓

Sun, Dec 19 2010, 10:27 pm

I always feel bad for these dogs, especially those that live in the city that are always kept on a tight leash and never get a chance to run around. How is this okay? Isn't it tzaar baalei chayim? For our own enjoyment we can make a dog suffer so we can keep him cooped up in a two room city apartment and 2 five minute walks a day?

↑ Merrymom ↓

Sun, Dec 19 2010, 10:49 pm

flowerpower wrote:

They run in the apartment. Theres a dog park right near my house so take your doggy there. If you walk with the leash they still get their walk.

So would you be happy running in your apartment and going for a walk with your dh holding your leash to your neck? I just don't think this is a way to treat an animal.

Chocoholic ↓

Sun, Dec 19 2010, 11:00 pm

Merrymom wrote:

flowerpower wrote:

They run in the apartment. Theres a dog park right near my house so take your doggy there. If you walk with the leash they still get their walk.

So would you be happy running in your apartment and going for a walk with your dh holding your leash to your neck? I just don't think this is a way to treat an animal.

You are projecting your own feelings on an animal - thinking about your own peace of mind rather than the pet's wellbeing..

gp2.0 ↓

Sun, Dec 19 2010, 11:07 pm

Never mind a leash, at least they get to be outside. There are dog runs too, where dogs can run free. And parks that allow off-leash.

But what about birds? (FTR, I had a bird that I loved, and simultaneously felt intensely sorry for.) In the wild, they'd fly as high and as far as they want, unrestricted. In captivity, most birds are in too-small cages that are the equivalent of a human being in ONE room of the house forever. Even the best, biggest cages, are still like having to stay indoors forever. Humans are OK with being indoors for long periods. But every time I'd see my bird flutter back and forth from cage wall to cage wall, my heart would break.

sequoia ↓

Sun, Dec 19 2010, 11:16 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

When I was a child we had a bird, a cockatiel. We let her out of her cage every day and she'd fly around the apartment and perch on people's shoulders Smile

Her name was Chiquita.

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Sun, Dec 19 2010, 11:26 pm

sequoia wrote:

gp2.0 wrote:

When I was a child we had a bird, a cockatiel. We let her out of her cage every day and she'd fly around the apartment and perch on people's shoulders Smile

Her name was Chiquita.

Yeah, I'd give her 'room time' but it just felt like making the cage a little bit bigger. Besides, I felt like a prison guard. "OK, now you can walk around outside the cell. OK, now back to the cell." She never wanted to go back inside the cage.

It's even worse with dolphins and whales in captivity. When you consider the hundreds of miles they normally travel, even the biggest tank will never be big enough.

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 6:25 am

Interestingly my grandmother (dad's mom) had a minhag about pets! She said we couldn't have a bird in cage because once upon a time there was a pogrom and the Jewish quarter was burning and birds came with water in their beak to help!
I have never met anyone with a similar minhag, but if I do we will definitely be landsleit!

My paternal grandparents grew up in the deep shtetl, surrounded by cows, goats, etc.

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 7:56 am

We babysat birds once and I felt like you did so I let them out of the cage to spread their wings a bit.... I felt so horrible because they didnt know how to land. They just toppled over onto whatever they were aiming for.
That decided it for me that I would never have birds because it was so cruel. That and that they pooped all over.

louche ↓

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 8:56 am

There is a hierarchy in the world, and animals are below humans in that hierarchy. Restraining animals for good purpose is clearly permitted. The Torah outlines when it is and is not appropriate to restrain an animal. For example, restraining domesticated animals so that they can do work is clearly permitted, and conditions are placed upon that, such as not yoking together stronger animals and weaker ones. Muzzling an animal so that he cannot eat your grain that he is treading is clearly forbidden; otoh muzzling an animal so that he cannot eat the produce in someone else's field is required. Restraining an animal that may harm humans is clearly required.

When you start considering animal "rights" as equivalent to human rights, you not only fly in the face of G-d's command to Adam HaRishon to rule over the planet, but you embark upon a slippery slope that culminates in PETA-style outrages.

Whether or not it's acceptable al pi halacha or al pi hashkafa to restrain animals in order to have them solely as pets as opposed to owning animals for work, pest control, food, fiber and so on is a question I have not investigated.

ChossidMom

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 8:57 am

I think that it is tsar ba'alei chaim to have a dog cooped up in an apartment. I feel that if you don't have the conditions for an animal - don't possess one. Dogs need space. A large house, a backyard and some freedom to run around. Heck, I feel guilty keeping my guinea pigs in a cage. They told me at the pet store that it's big enough but now I feel bad Sad

HindaRochel ↓

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 9:06 am

Most dogs need some sort of walk and/or yard time: the breed can help you know what dog is good for you. Some dogs just need a couple of walks a day and then the rest of the day they are happy to hang about the house. Other dogs need to run and jump and play. But a leash? Most dogs are fine with a leash as long as it fits comfortably.

↑ Merrymom ↓

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 11:59 am

louche wrote:

Having a pet is not a "good purpose". If people really loved animals they wouldn't keep them cooped up constantly so that they could have them for their own personal enjoyment. The same thing applies to visiting zoos. You can't say "I love animals, let's go to the zoo". If you really love animals you wouldn't go to the zoo and thereby further encourage them to basically mistreat the animals. How can a frum person justify this? I thought we don't do things that cause pain to animals?

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 12:29 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

Domesticated animals have been, well domesticated and live a much longer, happier, healthier life than their stray/feral counterparts.

Domesticated animals may be happier in captivity. And wild animals born in captivity may be happy as well. But wild animals 'rescued' and then kept in captivity often show signs of being depressed. Their lives are shorter and lonely. Definitely Tzaar Baalei Chaim IMO.