sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

I get it, but you are focusing a spotlight on the problems you see here. There are plenty of problems of emunah in the MO world too, they are just different problems and ones not often illustrated on "imamother". Maybe if you had a "imaMOmother" board, you might have more fodder Wink

thats cute Very Happy

yes freidasima I hear you. I have a problem with the things you mention. however I am a very different kind of chareidi I guess. I flat out refuse to buy into that garbage of I need to have a baby every year....bla bla bla so I cant be too bitter about it if I dont keep it right? I guess im lucky to have a husband who puts up with me.

but no thats not really what im referring to. (although those with those kind of issues would be welcome as well) im referring to other things.

schar vonesh
heaven and hell
bad things happening to good pple
drabbonan and deoraisa
male dominance (although to be fair its in the secular world as well)
medrashim
emunas chachomim (yes even MO rabbonim)
being the "chosen" nation
the format of our davening (how many times are we supposed to say the same thing over and over and over again)
and the all time favorite - mikvah, niddah status, impure versus pure....

all things that are part of modern orthodoxy as well

I'm looking at this list and I feel that there ARE answers. I won't go down your list and go blah, blah, blah. But I will give you some general ideas:

Bad things and good people - Rabbi Kirzner, a'h. I also heard a brief series from Rabbi Avrohom Jacobowitz, formerly of Detroit, on the subject. He stressed that there are MANY answers and he couldn't give a fair overview in the limited amount of time he had (actually, a few hours) but if you can get hold of any tapes or CDs of his on the subject it might be a fresh look.

Davening - last winter Rabbi Reisman spoke about the institution of the Anshei Knesses Hagedolah, and how we are still in that era. He's finishing up Yirmiyahu now. Yirmiyahu was the end of an era, where things were clear and b/w. We needed a new paradigm, where we could see Hashem even in the darkness. (You probably know the famous story or whatever of how they reinstated the words Hagibor vHanorah in the first bracha of Shemoneh Esrei.) My mind was personally blown by that shiur. It really resonated with me, how we have this capacity of being able to see through the darkness thanks to the genius of the Anshei Knesses Hagedolah. And R. Reisman stressed that informal prayer is beautiful and essential but when we say the words of the siddur, even without kavana (!) (not that with kavana's not better), we are tapping into something powerful.

Male dominance - good point that, it being in the outer world as well. Do you think Betty Friedan is rolling in her grave (sorry Ms. Friedan if you're still with us) at where we are now? Good Housekeeping republished her original feminist manifesto, or whatever the article she had in GH a couple of decades ago was. She envisioned women doing much greater things than we now have the "power" and "freedom" to do.

Having a baby every year - well, nothing I can say about that. You'll never hear about rabbanim giving heterim, or even advising spacing kids. Oh, never. Twisted Evil

(edited to insert the twisted emoticon)

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:18 pm

amother wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

amother wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

amother wrote:

Do you believe Reuvein slept with Bilhah?

Is that written in the chumash?

yes, Bereishit 35:22 "When Yisrael dwelled in that land, Reuven went and slept with Bilha, his father's concubine, and Yisrael heard."

This is a Rashi that probably all of us learned in school. Rashi clearly states that Reuven did not actually sleep with Bilhah but rather switched her bed with his mother, Leah's bed and this was considered as sleeping with her. Rashi also adds that Reuven did not sin. See Rashi Bereishis 35:22.

Yes I learnt that Rashi as well, the question was in response to this comment:

grin wrote:

this is far from a proof that all midrashim are to be taken literally -and yes, this is peshat, and chazal tell us that "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto".

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Regarding Medroshei Chazal: They are accepted by Klal Yisroel like the Gemora and the Zohar. We see the poskim as well as the Rishonim and Achronim quote Medroshei Chazal throughout. Also, the Chofetz Chaim in his sefer on hilchos Loshon Hora which is a halachah sefer quotes many medroshim, etc.

Regarding taking it literally, there are certain places where the meforshim say that's it's only a parable and should not be taken face value.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:28 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

thats cute Very Happy

(edited to insert the twisted emoticon)

thank you for restoring my faith. that was super enlightening. all my doubts are gone now.

truthfully I dont mean to be rude I just get frustrated by posts like these.

just for example- davening and tapping into something powerful? come on- how powerful can something be if I am just looking at the clock and wondering when I can leave shul? maybe tefilla should be shorter and not so repetive? then maybe I could actually appreciate it.

and also if supposedly our torah is so perfect then how can it possibly leave room for what is going on today? men in control of everything? agunos? abuse?

yes it is part of the world at large but the torah community feeds it like an epidemic and shuns those who want to make changes.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:33 pm

amother wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

thats cute Very Happy

(edited to insert the twisted emoticon)

I would suggest taking ONE topic and making a commitment to really learning about it. I think I would start with the schar v'onesh/ bad things happening to good people etc which is really one topic.

Choose one issue and go to shiurim about it. If you don't know where to go, ask here for recommendations of shiurim in real life or online, books, rabbonim etc. (I think you can email Rav Neugarshal with questions - he also might have shiurim/ books etc to help.) If you still have questions, turn to a knowledgeable rav.

Then move on to the next. There isn't really any point in having 20 topics going round in your head. Each have answers, but you can't tackle them all at once.

Also, I don't understand why you are going to shul if you enjoy it so little - ask a rav what davenning you have to say at home. You are a woman - why are you going if you are getting nothing out of it and it's just making you feel more distant?

↑ sequoia ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:50 pm

You know, freidasima, I can wear what I want, read what I want, watch what I want, and make my own decisions about birth control. But looking at my own life, at the world, at history, at Jewish history makes me wonder if Hashem is a benevolent being. I have no doubt of His existence and little doubt of His omnipotence. But I have serious doubts about His goodness.

And THAT is what I mean by struggling with emunah.

Not everything is about MO vs chareidi. These are philosophical questions that every human has, and it's much easier for atheists because they can say, everything is random, there is no good and creative Force in the world responsible for everything. But we do believe, or are supposed to believe in such a thing.

Look at our world, how the southern hemisphere. How children starve and nobody minds because they're the wrong color. How dictators butcher and slaughter their population and nobody minds, nobody intervenes.

Look at Russian history, how over 70 years the best were tortured, executed, how there was a culling and by the end of that culling all that was left was chaff.

Look at Jewish history, how we were oppressed everywhere we went, the Crusades, the Chmelnitsky pogroms (he is considered a hero in some parts of Ukraine), the Holocaust, and Israel was founded and everyone thought, finally, we'll be safe here. And no, not a moment's rest, not a moment's peace.

Any thinking, breathing, feeling person would have trouble believing in an omnipotent, just, and good G-d when she looks at the world. But we, as religious people, can't even take solace in the idea of atheism.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:23 pm

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

thats cute Very Happy

(edited to insert the twisted emoticon)

op here

your right. I asked my husband just now to go get me a shiur from the library and he is getting it for me tonight on his way home. its a series of shiurim on emunah and I think I will start listening to it.

also pinkfridge- do you have a link for rabbi reismans shiur?

I still want a place to talk to others like me and hash things over with. and to NOT BE JUDGED. I want to use the word foolish about something that I feel is foolish and not be banged over the head and told I have no emunas chachomim or no faith if I could dare think something in the torah is not perfect. see cause thats how I really feel and im tired of pretending that I dont feel that way.

im not sure you can really understand though because you have alot of faith in the torah and today's rabbonim. actually if you dont mind me asking- why is it that you have so much faith? where did you get it from? is it emunah peshuta or did you work on it? (anyone else can answer also)

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:27 pm

sequoia wrote:

op again.

yes this is another one of my problems. there is so much horror in the world and im not just reffering to global problems such as you described.

also personal- sickness, marrital strife, parental, child, spousal abuse, financial, mental.......

and its very difficult to trust in Hashem's goodness when he does this to us. experience has taught me otherwise

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:04 pm

Hi OP. My first reaction to your reaction to my post was AAARGGH, I knew that that was EXACTLY what you didn't want. But a few things there really did just pop out. At tough times I've been able to hold on to those thoughts; they've been anchors.

I don't know where my faith comes. I know I do have it fairly consistently. There's a concept called yemei haahava and yemei hasina, don't know who expounds on this, maybe Rav Wolbe or Rav Hutner. (I didn't see it in the original, just have heard of it.) Basically, it means that you'll go through life with up periods and down periods. As for my down periods, I've experienced them two ways
- wondering if it is all true. But then I figure, what's the alternative? And I still know and know of enough good people that I'll throw my lot in with them and hope for the best.
- down times - could be due to hormones, other stress. I don't doubt it's true but wonder if Hashem loves me, etc. I've heard, and I can't say from whom, but I've heard this and heard this often, Hashem is our greatest cheerleader. It's like the vort about Yosef being sold yet there was this great chesed (oh yeah) of his being surrounded by perfume. I've heard that a lot too, most recently read it attributed to Rav Mottel Pogremansky (sometimes the source is everything) and it really struck home. We have to hold on to these chassadim and know that Hashem may have put us in certain situations but doesn't want it to be any harder than it needs to be. (And no, this is not the answer that great, now relieves all doubts and Flower

and rainbows for all. It's a good springboard though.)

My life personally, what have I been through? Losing my mother young I had to work through some stuff, and I NEVER said, well people go through much worse and survive. What I have said is, what are their strengths, and what can I tap in to?

Anyway, enough about me. Kids clamoring for their time.

P.S. I don't have a link but I'll see if I can track down that shiur bli neder.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 5:01 pm

I'm going through a difficult time in my marriage because my husband has all these issues. He feels that yiddishkeit is a burden, of which he feels no benefit. It results in him feeling like his obligations and responsibilities to his family are a burden (because family life is so tied into yiddishkeit). And while he gets some benefit from wifey and kiddies, its not enough to make the aggravation worth it. He feels completely trapped because, in his mind, the only answer to his problems is to just run away from his his family and yiddishkeit. But it's a trap, because running away would hurt too many people that he cares about and he would lose everyone in his life.

So on my end, I married to someone who thought he wanted to live a frum married lifestyle. But now that he's in it, he's miserable and wants to take off. He says the easiest solution for everyone is to get hit by lightening. While I love him and am trying desperately to make this work for us, I personally would also prefer he get hit by lightening than abandon us. Even if I could handle the abandonment, I think my kids would grow up a lot healthier with a father who died than with a father who ran away from them.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 6:10 pm

amother wrote:

The question of regreting the frum lifestyle sometimes comes up in the Baal Tshuvah/ Gerim forum.

Ah, but is that open for people who don't qualify but might gain from it?

One last thing: On one hand, I don't think it would be good for such a forum to be closed, for the valid reasons others said. OTOH, the last thing anyone needs is stupidity, or cloying or annoying bromides, platitudes and cliches. (Bromide Platitude and Cliche sounds like the type of firm Marina does NOT want to make partner at ;-)

Hope I didn't come too close. Personally, I'm a simple person. Interested in ideas but not an intellectual. I would not have crises of faith over evolution etc., though I understand how it could affect someone. My MO (modus operandi... isn't that the only meaning to those roshei taivos?) is, so what? I call it So What Judaism. Looking at the people who are embroiled in the machlokes I notice that they're still shomer Torah umitzvos and I would likely eat in their homes. So to me, what does it matter if it was a literal 6 days or not? But I fully understand that that works for ME. YMMV.

Oh, and when it comes to crises in faith, some people will say, read this treatise on bitachon, that on emunah. What works for me is an essay in Rabbi Frand's book Listen to Your Messages called To Give is Divine. There ARE good people in the world. Let me amend that. There ARE good Jews in the world. This is the energy they tap into. I want in. I have serious chassidishe blood but the Litvishe genes are dominant. I like to consider myself a Berditchever chassid. That's my kind of chassidishe maaseh. Again, works for me, YMMV. G'nite.