sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

↑ grin ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 6:57 am

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

according to friends of mine who did go there, which is being reaffirmed by what I've read here - BY seems to discourage Q's in emuna -extremely unfortunate for the girls, since they never hear any answers to their Q's and can sadly assume that there aren't any.

BTW, I've been taught that not all midrashim are to be taken necessarily literally, but we should believe that they could be literal.

I also know of many chareidi sources that know how to reconcile the Torah with modern science. theres's an entire section on Chabad.org » Ideas & Beliefs » Torah & Science
THE TORAH SCIENCE FOUNDATION [http://www.torahscience.org]
http://www.borhatorah.org/

are some examples.

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:02 am

Just to clarify, when I say some Midrashim and Perushim are true on the spiritual level, I don't mean they are just nice parables meant to teach us a lesson, like Aesop's fables. I do believe they are literally true, just not in the physical sense. For example, I don't really think the physical sun and moon opened mouths and spoke. I believe the Midrash is referring to the angels in charge of the sun and moon, or the spiritual attributes of Mashpia and Mekabel or something like that. But since we have no true grasp of what angels or spiritual attributes are like, the closest approximation we can understand are their physical manifestations in the form of the sun and moon, which is why the Medrash uses those terms. Much like the Torah uses terms like "Hashem spoke" or "the hand of Hashem" as an approximation of concepts human beings are not capable of grasping in their true essence.

gryp ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:06 am

Sherri wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

I think a closed forum is a bad idea because - unlike with almost any other forum - you'd be excluding davka the people who might be able to help. Like, if someone posts in the BT/gerim forum about a problem with family it could be that someone else had that very problem and found a solution, but if someone posts in a closed forum for people struggling with emuna, if anyone out there had that issue and solved it and now is no longer struggling with emuna, she's also no longer eligible for the forum.

This is exactly what I mean by the blind leading the blind.

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling that the people who would belong to this subforum would not be interested in the kind of help the rest of us would like to offer.

Tell me if I'm wrong, I'll be glad to be. But from the first few pages, I got the impression that the only kind of help they want to hear is how to be not-frum in a frum world. How to deal with frum people including their own kids and husbands. Etc etc.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:18 am

amother wrote:

let me get this straight- this would be a forum where we can ask questions about things which we were raised to take for granted and not only would we not be attacked, but we might actually be able to talk out our issues?
when I was in high school, I had lots of questions, starting with how do you know g-d really exists? the answer I was given by my oh so brilliant teacher was "if youre asking such a question you shouldnt be in by."
at this point I dont know if I have emunah and bitachon or not. I dont actively question things really, but its just not so much a part of my life. I dont daven every day, I dont always remember to daven with my kids or wash their hands in the morning. im terrible at saying brachos with my son. half the time I dont bentch after I wash because I dont do it right away and then I get distracted and forget. I dont really feel a connection to g-d.
that is really starting to scare me though, because I was always taught that our relationship with our children is reflective of our relationship wth Him. im not really sure how that works though.....

I wasn't going to hit reply till I read the whole thread - five more pages since last night - but this I want to address.
If you'll indulge me, a few thoughts first:
- There was an amother on p. 1 (the OP) who was the first to reply to my "how do you envision this" post. Good stuff! Makes me think that, regrettably, this might be best as a closed forum because you'll be getting a lot of those kind of responses. (BTW, Lawrence Keleman IS great ;-)
- Actually, I think that's it. I didn't sleep well, have been up since 5:30 so pardon me if my train of thought derails.

I've always learned that Hashem wants us to relate to Him, so created the world with a various relationship paradigms - child-parent, sibling/friend, husband-wife, parent-child .

Let me interject with a line from Dr. Laura (one of the few things I hold of that she's said ;-): that we have two chances to have the parent-child interaction. We don't always get the one we want as a kid, but we have that opportunity again as adults.
Now I like that line, but truth is, if we missed something at an earlier stage, it's going to be harder to get it right in that later stage. I like to think that Hashem grades me on a curve; frankly, He's the one that put me in my childhood situation. B"H nothing terribly dysfunctional but spending a few of my teenage years with a dying mother wouldn't have been how I wrote the script. So there was a lot missing when I started out. And it didn't help that I jumped into marriage and parenthood feet first and woefully unprepared. Those years of little kids were the blur years for me. Lots of balls I dropped. Sometimes it felt like the sum of the balls I dropped were greater than the ones I had thrown at me to begin with. I'm going to stop here, I don't want to ramble or preach but DON'T PANIC! You'll be surprised at how well they turn out, because of you and not in spite of you. Do you need to breathe, reboot, etc.? Sure. I think a lot of what you're going through now is as much a function as the hecticness of life with little kids as it is of the gaps in emunah you want to investigate. (And as far as your teacher: take a few seconds to imagine yourself banging her head against the wall. Now breathe deeply. You now have it out of your system and are open to the possibility that you will have people enter your life, whether through shiurim or IRL, who leave you invigorated and happy and full of love of life and validated.)

Hope I contributed to the conversation. Now on to pp. 3 - 6.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:19 am

GR wrote:

Sherri wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

This is exactly what I mean by the blind leading the blind.

I would think its more about how to maintain yourself in a frum world if you have trouble believing.

From my experience with people who doubt (or even want to go OTD), they stay because they have more to lose if they leave - family, security, friends. They aren't looking for "here is how to run into McDonalds and grab a cheeseburger without anyone knowing" type of help. More of "how do you cope with looking around and seeing lies?" At least, that's the impression I've gotten.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:33 am

grin wrote:

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

There are so many BYs all over the world. I find it really hard to believe that it is okay to say that an entire school system is so bad that you are permitted to thank G-d that you didn't go to one. Would you feel so nonchalant if Litvish girls walked around thanking G-d that they didn't have to go to a Chabad school? I think it's inappropriate at best.

↑ shnitzel ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:41 am

grin wrote:

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

In defense of BY I was one of those girls who was sent to the principals office for asking emunah questions. In reality it was how I asked and who I asked. The teacher had absolutely no clue and a lot of the girls in that particular class really wanted their emunah pshuta to stay that way. So whether I agree or not with both the teacher and the student it really was not the appropriate place to question. I had other teachers and classes as I got older and learnt to distinguish where I could question and got answers that were appropriate to my level at that point in time.
I really think BY girls tell stories about not being allowed to question for shock value (I sometimes do) but there is a certain reality you sign up for when you go to BY and it is that not all teachers or students can handle questions b/c they strongly believe in emunah peshuta but they are not necessarily the majority.

I really think I gained more in BY than I could have anywhere else and I give BY a lot credit for who I am today despite having struggled a lot in BY. And despite being officially MO I iy"H will probably only send my daughter to BY type schools for various reasons.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:58 am

As someone who feels "stuck" I can honestly say that this is not a good idea unless its sole purpose is strengthening those that are struggling.
For me. I do think that Yiddishkeit is beautiful and true and all but I have a very hard time believing that the way it's practiced today is the true way (I'm Charedi) and I have a hard time with all these restrictions especially when I don't believe in many of them.
I especially have issues the sexist and male dominance interpretation in many things and wonder if that's the true interpretation. But I don't think my issues will get resolved if I join a forum where everybody voices their issues. I think it will accomplish just the opposite.
I do wish that I can get answers and guidance to my struggles. I wonder if there are any answers at all or people who are able and willing to answer such struggles of mine.