sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

ora_43 ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:58 am

I think a closed forum is a bad idea because - unlike with almost any other forum - you'd be excluding davka the people who might be able to help. Like, if someone posts in the BT/gerim forum about a problem with family it could be that someone else had that very problem and found a solution, but if someone posts in a closed forum for people struggling with emuna, if anyone out there had that issue and solved it and now is no longer struggling with emuna, she's also no longer eligible for the forum.

Two other issues -

It's unrealistic to expect that if you make a special forum, you won't get responses you don't like. You will always get responses you don't like. Just because everyone is struggling, doesn't mean one person won't be shocked at what a second person writes. Just because everyone is struggling, doesn't mean that one won't say that Permission to Believe really helped her while a second won't be thinking "if one more person recommends that book I will scream."

And the second - everyone is struggling. As some previous posters said, struggling with emunah and bitachon is part of the human condition. I don't think it needs a closed forum any more than "family issues" or "emotional issues" should be closed - nearly everyone will have use for it at some point or another, so why make a special thing that you need to apply for?

Make it an open subforum like emotional health or shalom bayis.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:04 am

ora_43 wrote:

And the second - everyone is struggling. As some previous posters said, struggling with emunah and bitachon is part of the human condition. I don't think it needs a closed forum any more than "family issues" or "emotional issues" should be closed - nearly everyone will have use for it at some point or another, so why make a special thing that you need to apply for?

Make it an open subforum like emotional health or shalom bayis.

IMO, not a terrible idea. Like an "Emotional Health" "Mental Health" "Emunah/Bitachon Health" subsection.

↑ Sherri ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:31 am

ora_43 wrote:

This is exactly what I mean by the blind leading the blind.

freidasima ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:41 am

Ive just skimmed through this but I wouldn't put any bets on the admin opening up a subforum for this.
Why?
Because 99% of the "problems in emunah" that I have read on here aren't an issue for the MOs. Not because they don't believe but because the way MO rabbonim on the most part and educators on the most part and Gedolim on the most part, explain things.
Hence without going into details, as long as you believe in the existence of the Ribono shel Olam, his being the one and only G-d in the world, creator of the world who gave us the Torah, all the rest is really very little problem. But for that you have to take science, history, culture, anthropology, sociology and psychology into account which is something that charedim who love to take everything literally, are loathe to do.

And so, if you are going to take it all literally, you are going to be in gehokte zurris. Hence I'm happy I'm MO.
But that's not the answer that the charedi posters want here. However it's the only intellectually honest answer that I know of.

Hence, as the MO are anathema here and just barely tolerated as "our sister sinners who maybe we can get one day onto the straight and narrow (see the guidelines for the MO forum)."..no way Jose.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:46 am

freidasima wrote:

Sorry but I don't believe for a minute that MO don't have emuna problems. I don't even know if I believe that more Chareidim have emuna problems than MO.
The MO approach answers some questions, but there are plenty of questions even with MO approach.

↑ Sherri

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:56 am

freidasima wrote:

Hence without going into details, as long as you believe in the existence of the Ribono shel Olam, his being the one and only G-d in the world, creator of the world who gave us the Torah, all the rest is really very little problem.

You seem to be taking for granted that those who affiliate with Modern Orthodoxy take that as a given. Some anonymous posters themselves stated here that that is not necessarily the case.

Ruchel ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:16 am

chavamom wrote:

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

But the medrash isn't *meant* to be taken literally.

Tell that to the Bais Yaakov I went to. But again, it depends on the age of the child, a 4 year old is going to learn this literally and rightfully so (along with all the other black and white characterizations), an older child should be taught the lesson behind the story and why chazal brought down this particular parable to teach it. Some schools cover this level very rarely and I think it's a great disservice to many of their students.

Rav Brevda has a speech about the story of Purim. He argues that the schools are teaching this wrong. Children are taught that the Jews were afraid of Haman, because Haman wanted to kill the Jews. In truth, Hashem made Haman hate us because the Jewish people at the time went to the party of Achashveirosh, when they were not supposed to.

The schools teach about the party, but they don't teach that Hashem was running the show.

OK, my Bais Yaakov got this part right. What bothered me to no end was needing a malach to sleep with Achashveirosh becuase of course Esther would never have done that. But that is not an emuna issue, more of an emunas chachamim issue. Can that be part of this forum?

Seriously? So how do they reconcile that with the whole "she couldn't go back to Mordechai [her husband according to this line of thought] after the one time she went to Achshverosh willingly" pshat? Sorry to distract from the topic at hand...

I learned something similar.
I'm not quite a BY kid (though I'm a BY mom, can you imagine LOL

).
She was forbidden because c'v that the king would know it was not her!

As a note, my dh learned in a charedi setting and not EVERYTHING was literal, and some things were even "cultural/dependent on what was happening at the time" (like the non jews being like rotten corpses).

Marion

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:29 am

I would love such a forum. IME asking certain questions (especially about mikvah!) on the general forum ends up in a barrage of "work on yourself" or "read this", usually from women who clearly have no issue with that mitzvah (and quite often seem to have no issue with anything any gadol has ever suggested should be taken upon oneself). The advantage of the closed forum would be that "you" wouldn't be sitting there wondering why poster x thinks she's got all the answers. There would be a common ground. And I DON'T believe it would be the blind leading the blind; I think most of us have questions/doubts/difficulties in our bitachon/emunah in a few specific areas, but those areas don't necessarily all overlap. So it would be each of us drawing from our resources in our strong areas to give support and help those who struggle.

(I don't know if I'm being clear. If I struggle in mikvah I could get support and chizzuk from Marina who is strong in her adherence and understanding of TH. In turn Marina, struggling with d'rabbanan vs. d'oraita in hilchot Shabbat could get support from Hinda Rochel who is quite strong in those areas. Hinda Rochel, however, struggles with covering her hair or wearing sleeves below her elbows, and since I am strong in that area I could help out. So we come full circle.) There's a huge difference between hearing advice from those who you KNOW have similar issues and hearing it from the "goody goodies".

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:34 am

Who qualifies?
Someone who has general emuna problems?
Or someone who has a weakness in belief on one topic? (then most people certainly do!)
If a weakness is enough, how is it defined? Not keeping it at all? Keeping the lightest minority controversial opinion? Keeping an accepted "but not by my group" way? Just doubting but doing it for social or habit or minhag reasons?

↑ marina ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 5:21 am

I would not mind it being an open forum like the Natural Parenting forum, where posts are deleted if they are not helpful

So for example, people could post but no one should be allowed to post things like:

*oh, you have made up your mind already, you are not looking for answers, you are just looking to justify your aveiros

*Oh, you are so arrogant as to think you should be able understand everything Hashem does.

*Oh, your kids are going to be so messed up if you don't find your way back, my dear lost and confused sister.

*Oh, you don't like my answer because you just like to argue

*Oh, you just don't like the answer because you are bitter

*Oh, how does your poor husband put up with you

* Oh, you just want the easy way out so that's why you are pretending to have doubts.

All examples of things said to me in the last week by various people. Confused

And yes, there are some people who will just have not post in this forum at all. Kind of like I almost never post in the Natural Parenting forum and I just leave them be and they just leave me be.

But if you have an answer and you are not afraid of it getting analyzed and dissected, you would certainly be welcome to post it. And if you have advice that worked for you when you were having issues, then sure you would certainly be welcome to post it.

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 5:31 am

chavamom wrote:

hadasa wrote:

And just BTW, I hope I won't get kicked off the Chareidi forum for saying this, but I don't believe every single Perush and Midrash is literally true in the physical sense. How can that be, if they often contradict each other? Rather, some are true in the physical sense and some are true only in the spiritual sense, and it is not for us to determine which is which.

So kick me off the charedi forum too - we'll be in good company.

uh oh. Is there going to be another forum for post-charedi forumers?

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 5:54 am

Amother, at 4 I wouldn't bother. Many 4 year olds believe in fairy tales.

As your child ages and learns more/deeper, I would start explaining that many things are parables. I honestly do not believe that Hashem literally created the world the way Bereishis says it happened and I have no problem with that. I hope my kids understand that too.

saw50st8 ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 6:30 am

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

True I never went to BY (BH)

Why B"H? I went to BY. I didn't realize there is something so wrong with it that you need to thank G-d for not attending.

I'm not the amother, but for me, my soul would have died in Bais Yaakov (my sisters went there so I know a bit of what goes on and it would have been awful for me).

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(Does anyone believe all midrashim are meant to be taken literally?)

No, but some communities its a lot harder to say "I don't believe that medrash actually happened" than in others.

Was Rivka really 3 when she got married? Was it the result of an improper text? Was she just betrothed? I can tell you that I unequivocally don't believe she was sleeping with Yitchak at 3. No matter how many times my teachers have tried to convince me.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 6:33 am

I haven't read the whole thread (just the first page to get the drift) but I did want to chime in with my two cents on the matter. I would definitely be a candidate for the forum as I've had emunah issues for a long time and have never really managed to reconcile them (though I've kind of somewhat made peace with my life as it is at the moment).

In my opinion, it would not be a good idea to have a closed forum for people who are having emunah issues because, in my experience anyway, when you get a bunch of people together who are having doubts, those doubts just compound and get confirmed and gain a lot of weight and legitimacy. Surrounding yourself with others who feel that way can really be detrimental to a lot of people.

Just to explain, and this is 100% why I'm anonymous here, while I was single, I was having major emunah issues. So I opened a blog to air my questions and quickly made contact with other bloggers who had lots of questions. And suddenly I had a community of people with questions and issues with the frum lifestyle - some of whom had gone off the derech and some who hadn't - but with their support, I almost walked away from being frum altogether. Because I had a support system in which to do it. I would be afraid that a forum here would offer the same type of environment, which I would think if antithetical to this site.

Again, just my two cents. And if you do end up having a closed forum, I probably, for my own sake and my own emunah and the emunah of others, would not join.

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 6:41 am

amother wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Nosson Slifkin's blog seems to get plenty of traffic from MO types that have problems of emunah and reconciling Torah and Science. And charedim certainly don't have the corner on off-the-derech types. I'm not buying this one FS.