Do you allow mixed singing at your Shabbat table?

↑ imamama

Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:06 pm

a shana reshonanick wrote:

I once heard that a man is not allowed to say a dvar shebikedusha while he hears singing of a female. No difference who that female is. I think its like ervah. Some say that zemiros is considered dvar shebikedusha.

And then there's the flip side of that, which is the opinion that dvarim shebikedusha don't count for kol isha. Meaning, a man can't hear a woman sing any stam song, but a pasuk (so I guess that would include a lot of Jewish music), or tehillim sung in a tune, or bentching and zimirot don't fall under the category of kol isha.

(As an aside, I believe there is an opinion that singing children's songs to your kids doesn't fall under kol isha either. So if you're trying to get your baby to sleep, and you have a male guest that might hear you singing lullabies, there's nothing wrong with that, even though it's your lone voice.)

chocolate fondue

Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:16 pm

slushiemom wrote:

a shana reshonanick wrote:

care to back that up with a source? I once heard a lot of things... good thing I dont straight out believe everything I hear! (especially things I heard in seminary)

That's what my husband says. He read it to me from the source... I can't remember where and he's not home to ask. It doesn't make much of a difference to me - I can't carry a tune to save my life!

oymamala

Tue, Jun 08 2010, 11:00 pm

If I can sing along I usually do. That's the only way the tune resembles a tune. My daughter loves to sing and I think it's a beautiful way to bond with her father whom she barely sees during the week. But, is there a halacha problem with women singing zemiros on shabbos? I never heard of that... where would I find the reference?

kalsee ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 12:33 am

freidasima wrote:

a non issue with us as we hold that kol isha does not apply unless it is a woman, singing face to face alone in front of men with no microphone or sound system or instruments.

Groups of women - fine
mixed groups - fine
microphone - fine
Video - fine
with instruments - fine

So our rabbonim taught us and so we hold.
Naturally I will be aware of what my guests feel and hold and will do a lot not to embarras them, same if I am in a general public. But in my own house with my family and friends who hold like we do? Not an issue.

Do you also hold that you are not yotzei a brocha through the mike (chupa, etc.) or does it only go one way?

↑ slushiemom ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 1:40 am

kalsee wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Do you also hold that you are not yotzei a brocha through the mike (chupa, etc.) or does it only go one way?

that doesn't even make sense to bring in as a comparison. The kol isha issue is that a man shouldn't hear a women's voice. Many poskim hold that a women singing into a microphone is fine (I'm not saying I hold that way, just that there are valid poskim who do) because it distorts her voice, so it's not her voice in all it's glory. hearing a bracha through a mike does nothing to the bracha itself, obviously. that comparison would only work if the issue was WHAT the words coming through the mike were, not WHO was the person saying it.

↑ kalsee ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 1:49 am

slushiemom wrote:

kalsee wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Do you also hold that you are not yotzei a brocha through the mike (chupa, etc.) or does it only go one way?

I understood the reason to be that the voice through the mike is not really hearing the voice, rather an electronicly modified voice. Which is why some people hold that you can't be yotzei a brocha if you are not really "hearing" it.
(You then run into the risk of asking why these same people won't listen to a woman sing through the mike ... Wink

but whatever).

↑ slushiemom ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 1:53 am

kalsee wrote:

slushiemom wrote:

kalsee wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Do you also hold that you are not yotzei a brocha through the mike (chupa, etc.) or does it only go one way?

but whatever).

in that case, you make a good point- you can't have it both ways! but still, I think the issues are for totally seperate reasons- and if the bracha thing was true, then the brachot at every single wedding I've ever been at would be invalid?!?!

↑ kalsee ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 2:02 am

slushiemom wrote:

people who hold that way make sure to have a 10 men near the chupa so that they hear the brocha not through the mike.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 5:02 am

true kalsee, people who don't hold that way have at least a minyan of men near the chuppa to hear "directly".
But there is a psak that you can even answer amen to a brocho that you hear over the radio or on TV as long as it is "real time" meaning a direct broadcast. Why? Because davka we are meikel when it comes to anything that is shebekedusha to add to our brochos. While we are also meileil in the other direction not to make life difficult for people and make yiddishkeit unpalatable. Hence the minute a voice is altered it can't be the source of "sitra achra", or cause "yetzer horo" and a mike alters the voice. But when it is saying - through the mike - things of kedusha, you CAN answer amen!

So it does work both ways, it's the principle that counts of adding brochos and looking at the same time for ways not to alienate yidden and look for a yetzer horo in everything under the sun where it doesn't have to be...just depends on your hashkofo.

↑ smilethere

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 5:24 am

oymamala wrote:

I think we're discussing singing in a group with other men present.

I'll join the crow choir. I say it's no problem for me to sing, because it'll take a lot of imagination to figure out that I'm singing.

chanchy123

Wed, Jun 09 2010, 5:29 am

[quote="slushiemom"]

kalsee wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Similarly, we hold that you are not yotzeh by a shofar blown into a mike (if you're hearing only from the speakers, not the actual shofar) it comes from the mishna התוקע בתוך בור
Similarly, you're not yotzhe megila heard over the radio (in Israel megila is broadcast live on radio and TV).
I'm not sure what the din is about brachot, I assume that's different (because it's not an issue of actually hearing, more of what is being said but I may be wrong, will ask DH).

Do you also hold that you are not yotzei a brocha through the mike (chupa, etc.) or does it only go one way?