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Forum
-> Parenting our children
Do you allow your daughters to sing at a mixed Shabbat table?
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| I encourage my daughters to sing at the table |
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28% |
[ 29 ] |
| I don't mind if they sing |
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13% |
[ 14 ] |
| I strongly discourage my daughters to sing at a mixed table |
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8% |
[ 9 ] |
| My daughers would never dream of singing at a mixed table; they've been taught it's against halacha |
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48% |
[ 49 ] |
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| Total Votes : 101 |
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amother
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 Tue, Jun 08 2010, 3:17 am
One of the other threads made me curious about this question.
Assuming you have male guests, do you allow your past bat-mitzvah daughters to sing at the table?
(I'm asking only about situations where you have male guests. I assume that if it's just family, no one minds their girls singing).
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Marion
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 3:53 am
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I don't have daughters, but I sing. I'm the one who can carry a tune.
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amother
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:20 am
I can no longer edit the poll. But the question is theoretical. So if you don't have daughters, just answer what you would do if you had.
I also seem to have forgotten that most of the women here are young and their children are small. Again, answer with what you plan to do as your daughters get older.
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Tamiri
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:22 am
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Of course. Totally a non-issue in my circles. Never was an issue and I hope it never will be an issue.
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imamama
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:41 am
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I grew up in a household where everyone was encouraged to join in the zmirot at the Shabbos table, and I plan to raise my daughters that way, as well.
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slushiemom
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:55 am
| Tamiri wrote: | | Of course. Totally a non-issue in my circles. Never was an issue and I hope it never will be an issue. |
What Tamiri said. I posted encourage, but it's theoretical since my kids are boys and aged 3 and 2. It was never even an issue growing up.
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Isramom8
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 4:58 am
Over bas mitzvah they can mouth the words, or sit far from any male guests and sing quietly, as I do. (Very quietly.) Little girls can sing till a certain age - we never specified nor do we have a clear policy on what that age is.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Tue, Jun 08 2010, 6:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tablepoetry
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:00 am
| slushiemom wrote: | | Tamiri wrote: | | Of course. Totally a non-issue in my circles. Never was an issue and I hope it never will be an issue. |
What Tamiri said. I posted encourage, but it's theoretical since my kids are boys and aged 3 and 2. It was never even an issue growing up. |
Same. My girls love to sing, and I encourage it. Never an issue in my circles.
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imamama
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:03 am
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Isramom, what option did you choose in the poll?
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:37 am
| Marion wrote: | | I don't have daughters, but I sing. I'm the one who can carry a tune. | same here  I am the one who carries the zemira if it is being sung at all
growing up we were all allowed to sing (there were three girls and one boy) and we plan on doing the same (my daughter is only 2 years old now but she already loves singing )
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smilethere
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:49 am
I'm a little confused, isn't there an issur of 'kol ishah'
I'm curious to hear your side of the story - what do you mean 'it's not an issue in our circles'?
~From one who selected the 4th option
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slushiemom
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:53 am
| smilethere wrote: | I'm a little confused, isn't there an issur of 'kol ishah'
I'm curious to hear your side of the story - what do you mean 'it's not an issue in our circles'?
~From one who selected the 4th option |
There are valid opinions from Orthodox rabbis that allow women to sing with men present if it's in a group, not by themselves. I dont think anyone here would belt out a solo at her shabbos table in front of unrelated men, and claim her rabbi said it's fine because it's zemirot, but to sing shabbos songs, shalom aleichem, shir hamalot, etc in a group at a shabbos table? Many, many rabbonim hold that that's perfectly fine and there is no issue with it whatsoever.
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saw50st8
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 5:56 am
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I don't enjoy singing and have no daughters (plus I can't carry a tune). But I do sing along to shir hamaalos and stuff. If I have daughters they can sing as much as they want but I doubt it would be at our table because we don't like to sing.
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Isramom8
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 6:32 am
I voted 4 but it's not entirely accurate that they would not even think of singing.
For those who sing, what do you think of this scene? DH invited a MO family over for Friday night. Now usually guests do what you do even if they do differently at home, right? Not this woman. DH started singing Shalom Aleichem. This woman looked at me and asked in horror, "You don't sing?" I said something like, "Yes, when we can." She said in this very assertive tone, "WE sing." And proceded to lift high her lovely soprano voice to the pesukim of Shalom Aleichem. And motioned firmly for her teenage daughter to join in.
I thought it rude and never invited them back. It's one thing to be unaware, or to have a different shita. But I was clearly uncomfortable. DH, of course, ignored her singing; you have to ignore some things to be a successful rabbi in a mixed community.
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yo'ma
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 6:46 am
I told my dd a little before she turned 12 that when we have male guests she shouldn't sing, but she took it too far and stopped singing altogether, even when it's just us.  She doesn't not sing in front of family for tznius reasons.
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bubby
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 6:49 am
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When my daughters reached a certain age we stopped having male guests & switched to girls. Then when they left home we switched back to Bochurim, which is where it is today. So mixed singing was never an issue, but even now, we (married females) don't sing in front of men. It's a shame, I love these niggunim, but that's the way it is!
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 6:58 am
| Isramom8 wrote: | I voted 4 but it's not entirely accurate that they would not even think of singing.
For those who sing, what do you think of this scene? DH invited a MO family over for Friday night. Now usually guests do what you do even if they do differently at home, right? Not this woman. DH started singing Shalom Aleichem. This woman looked at me and asked in horror, "You don't sing?" I said something like, "Yes, when we can." She said in this very assertive tone, "WE sing." And proceded to lift high her lovely soprano voice to the pesukim of Shalom Aleichem. And motioned firmly for her teenage daughter to join in.
I thought it rude and never invited them back. It's one thing to be unaware, or to have a different shita. But I was clearly uncomfortable. DH, of course, ignored her singing; you have to ignore some things to be a successful rabbi in a mixed community. | isramom8, I totally agree with you. I think that was very rude. its one thing if she did not know or could not tell if females sing in your house but once she knew and then davka sang? that is very rude.
ill tell you that I remember one time we had a single male guest and the whole topic of kol isha came up and it was obvious that he was very against females singing at the table, so even though usually I would sing, I refrained because I knew that it would make him uncomfortable.
you have to know your "audience".
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Raisin
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 7:08 am
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I sing quietly. we don't say anything if female guests sing loudly, usually there are plenty of men singing.
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saw50st8
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 8:28 am
| Isramom8 wrote: | I voted 4 but it's not entirely accurate that they would not even think of singing.
For those who sing, what do you think of this scene? DH invited a MO family over for Friday night. Now usually guests do what you do even if they do differently at home, right? Not this woman. DH started singing Shalom Aleichem. This woman looked at me and asked in horror, "You don't sing?" I said something like, "Yes, when we can." She said in this very assertive tone, "WE sing." And proceded to lift high her lovely soprano voice to the pesukim of Shalom Aleichem. And motioned firmly for her teenage daughter to join in.
I thought it rude and never invited them back. It's one thing to be unaware, or to have a different shita. But I was clearly uncomfortable. DH, of course, ignored her singing; you have to ignore some things to be a successful rabbi in a mixed community. |
That's just rude. Its not like asking them to be mechalel shabbos or anything...I try to make my guests comfortable. The only time I don't adhere to "local custom" is when its Pesach and my BIL is over. He holds its assur for him to hear me singing, but he doesn't want to sing. Well, it ruins my Pesach not to sing (I really enjoy it on Pesach!) so I do anyway.
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yiddishe vayb
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Tue, Jun 08 2010, 8:58 am
I love love love love to sing but I still wouldn't.
I was taught it's not allowed.
If it were allowed I'd do the singing.
When I'm allowed to sing we make sure to sing every song in the bencher.
It brings me closer to Hashem... Must be what gan eden feels like!
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