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SHTUSIM

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mumsy23

Fri, May 19 2006, 2:02 am

This is really bothering me...

The word Shtuyot - isn't it already plural? So why do frummies double plural?

Shtuyot = Shtus (still plural, just changed to ivris) = shtusim (plural on top of plural - MAKES NO SENSE!!! Can someone please explain this to me??)

ALSO - Shabbat in plural is Shabbatot so why do frummies say Shabbasim???

TzenaRena ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 2:32 am

The word shtus is not plural. It is singular, and shtuyos is the plural, if you're speaking Ivrit-s. The usage of Lashon Kodesh words is however integral to the Yiddish language, so that such words are spoken with Yiddish accentuation, adaptation etc.. Someone wanting to say multiples of Shabbos and using the grammatical Shabbosos IMO would sound like a stuffy, silly grammarian, not like somone holding a conversation..

binah918

Fri, May 19 2006, 3:27 am

Shtut (Singular)
Shtuyot (Plural)

like:

Lakut, means defficiency (Singular)
Lakuyot (Plural)

chavamom ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 3:34 am

How about the plural of 'bris' is 'brisos' or 'britot' NOT brissim? There are many of these running around in the ivrit/ivris/yiddish lexicon.

chen ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 8:07 am

Britot is Ivrit, brisim is Yiddish
Shabbatot is Ivrit, shabbosim is Yiddish
Shtuyot is Ivrit. shtusim is Yiddish
Tallitot is Ivrit, taleisim is Yiddish.
And so on ad infinitum.

Despite their close interconnection, Hebrew and Yiddish are two completely separate languages, each with its own distinct pronunciation and grammar. Contrary to popular belief, Yiddish is much closer to German than it is to modern Hebrew or even to Biblical Hebrew. Approximately 80% of Yiddish words are of German origin; some 5% come from Russian and other Slavic languages, and some 15% come from Hebrew. (This applies to the Yiddish that was spoken in Eastern Europe pre-World War II, not necessarily to the Yiddish currently spoken in the United States, which has absorbed a large percentage of English words. )

Taleisim, Shabbosim and so on are grammatically perfectly correct-- if one is speaking Yiddish. I believe Yinglish is still too new to have the status of a distinct language, and its grammar is still in a state of flux. It remains to be seen whether this dialect will endure and develop a consistent grammar to the point at which it is recognized as a separate legitimate language.

For individuals who believe themselves to be speaking Hebrew, or inserting Hebrew expressions into their conversation, the correct terms are Shabbatot (or Shabbosos for those with Ashkenazic pronunciation), Tallitot or tallisos, britot or brisos, and so on.

goldrose

Fri, May 19 2006, 10:01 am

-taanis bechorim

-and with regards to matzah, many call whole ones "shleimim"

Mommy912 ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 10:56 am

On the subject of Hebrew/Yiddish translation, what do you call the 3rd meal on Shabboss?
What in the world does shalashudis mean? Shalosh Seudos - 3 meals?
In Hebrew it is Seuda Shlishit - the third meal. Now that makes sense.

↑ chen ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 11:08 am

OK, if we're going to post pet peeves re: Hebrew grammar and usage:

It's not bosei dinim, it's bosei din. One is a beis din, which is "smichus" or possessive. It is a "house of judgement", plural is "houses of judgement", not "houses of judgements", just as English we have one "court of law" and several "courts of law," not several "courts of laws".

Strictly speaking, it's not bosei knaysiyos, either: it's bosei knesses. Same rule as above: one house of assembly, many houses of assembly, not houses of assemblies. Yes, I know that many seforim use the expression "bosei knaysiyos" but that doesn't make it correct. Sadly, most yeshivos do not teach proper "Ivreh", and the Hebrew in many of them is, to put it mildly, embarrassing.

It's not yasher koach--it's yiyshar kochacho.
For 500 points: what's the correct response to this blessing?

for 200 points--what's the correct Hebrew greeting on Chol hamoed? (not Yiddish--that's too easy.)

And for another 500 points--what's the correct response?

↑ chen ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 11:09 am

[quote="Mommy912"] What in the world does shalashudis mean? Shalosh Seudos - 3 meals?
[\quote]

Got it in one! I had to have someone explain that one to me.

↑ Mommy912 ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 12:23 pm

chen wrote:

for 200 points--what's the correct Hebrew greeting on Chol hamoed? (not Yiddish--that's too easy.)

I'm gonna guess "Moadim Lisimcha" even though I know you say it on Yom Tov. But it does sound like Chol Hamoed.

hisorerus

Fri, May 19 2006, 12:32 pm

chen wrote:

It's not yasher koach--it's yiyshar kochacho.
For 500 points: what's the correct response to this blessing?

In my book? Sheshibarta. Twisted Evil

↑ chen ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 12:42 pm

Mommy912 wrote:

chen wrote:

for 200 points--what's the correct Hebrew greeting on Chol hamoed? (not Yiddish--that's too easy.)

I'm gonna guess "Moadim Lisimcha" even though I know you say it on Yom Tov. But it does sound like Chol Hamoed.

200 points. people say moadim lesimchoh on yom tov? I've only heard chag someach.

so, for 500 points, what's the response?

↑ chen ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 12:44 pm

hisorerus wrote:

chen wrote:

It's not yasher koach--it's yiyshar kochacho.
For 500 points: what's the correct response to this blessing?

In my book? Sheshibarta. Twisted Evil

Crayon210 ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 12:59 pm

chen wrote:

Yes, I know that many seforim use the expression "bosei knaysiyos" but that doesn't make it correct.

You mean sefarim like the Gemara?

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 1:00 pm

Isn't the response "Chagim u'zmanim l'sason"?

↑ chen ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 1:27 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Isn't the response "Chagim u'zmanim l'sason"?

bingo! where and how did you learn this?

↑ chen ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 1:31 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

chen wrote:

Yes, I know that many seforim use the expression "bosei knaysiyos" but that doesn't make it correct.

You mean sefarim like the Gemara?

May I respectfully point out that the Gemoro is written not in Hebrew but in Aramaic, a language closely related to, yet distinct from, Hebrew, with its own grammar and spelling rules. The relationship between the two languages is analogous to the relationship between Spanish and Italian, lehavdil. I refer to works written in Hebrew.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 1:32 pm

I can honestly say I have no idea...but I knew that.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 1:33 pm

chen wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

chen wrote:

Yes, I know that many seforim use the expression "bosei knaysiyos" but that doesn't make it correct.

You mean sefarim like the Gemara?

What about the instances in which synagogues are referred to in a Hebrew portion of the Gemara?

rosehill ↓

Fri, May 19 2006, 3:10 pm

Quote:

It's not yasher koach--it's yiyshar kochacho.
For 500 points: what's the correct response to this blessing?

Baruch Tihyeh (m)
Brucha Tihyi (f)

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