Need help figuring out how to deal...

amother ↓

Sat, May 06 2006, 7:16 pm

I'm taking a gamble and hoping that the people I'm writing about aren't on here, and if you are then maybe it's a good idea for you to read this to see what my husband and I are going through.

My husband and I have been doing some work for a shliach. We get paid on a per job basis. It is a consistant job and we rely on the money as necessary income. Most checks we get bounce and on top of that we get a surcharge from the bank for each check that bounces. We've spoken to the Rabbi about this numerous times and he always repays us for the check owed, but that bounces too! We've told him that if it's easier, to please pay us every other time instead. He said its easier to pay us per job.

Well, right now we have almost 10 checks that we need to deposit. My husband spoke to him a few days ago and said that we need the money now because we're stuck. He said give him 2 days and he'll have it. Two days later he says I dont have anything, still working on it.

I want to call him now and demand it. Problem is I dont know what to say. I feel like we were used and that he wasn't honest with us at all- he's never said anything to us about not being able to pay etc.

I am in no way trying to bash shluchim, and I understand that they have a really stressful time financially. However, I feel that right now we need to be selfish- we have bills to pay!!! Regardless, at least he should be honest and tell us that there isnt money- that way I wouldnt have worked for him in the 1st place. There is still a little bit left to the job and quite frankly I dont want to finish it without getting paid for the previous work 1st.

How should I approach this? I'm just so angry right now. What a chutzpa.

MMEC123

Sat, May 06 2006, 7:27 pm

I have to agree with the 2nd amother.

This is a big problem in general- especially in the frum world, and more especially in the chinuch world. I work for a school that also has trouble paying salaries on time. I'm sure they just don't have it (at least I'd like to believe that) and they assume as a frum person you understand that. The problem is, we have bills to pay and we're relying on our money. Worst comes to worst, maybe it's time to find a new source of income.

southernbubby ↓

Sun, May 07 2006, 12:29 am

I have also seen that happen numerous times. Working for a mosod is always risky because the person writing checks is hoping to cover them by the time they get to the bank. At one school, the teachers raced to the bank because there was usually money for only the first checks cashed. The rest all bounced. Sometimes these institiutions have a large employee turnover because nobody can afford to donate their life.
You may want to speak to a rav. This is because, even if you quit and he hires someone else, you are entitled to the pay you earned. If he has a new person on payroll, he may try to pay them first.
Often single young men and women are hired for these jobs because it can be assumed that their parents are still supporting them. The single people are saving money for when they are married, but will often stay in the job for awhile because they believe that they will be paid eventually. It can take a long time to see the money, if they ever get it. (Our children were lucky BH and got paid what they were owed, on time!).
Eventually this shaliach will hit a point where people are afraid to work for him. Even if you keep this quiet, people will see a pattern of turnover and realize that the job does not pay. Meanwhile, he is just trying to keep his programs going.

Tefila

Sun, May 07 2006, 2:17 am

It's despicable that someone can have that happen to them not once but alot of times. I feel so for you amother. Perhaps this suggestion is good

Quote:

these situations are really difficult, only thing I can tell you is, tell him you wont do anymore work for him unless he pays you what he owes you.

I would even go so far in saying please pay me in cash from now on.
And hopefully he will get the message. I'm sure he is not c"v malicouse, but thoughtless yes Exclamation

Let me ask you something else how does he cope financially does he have his checks that he recieves bounce on him too ?!
Hatzlacho hope you are able to work something out Wink

↑ southernbubby ↓

Sun, May 07 2006, 6:38 am

The problem with quitting now is that probably innocent people who are depending on this mosod will suffer. That is why teachers who rarely get paid try to finish the year. Unfortunately "frum finances" are a complicated issue. Most people owe money all over the place and feel that other frum people will "understand"
. Before we know the unspoken rules, we lost approx $2000 in a defaulted loan to a mosod. We didn't know how to protect ourselves. The word "loan" may be another term for "gift" unless a shtar is written and witnesses sign and colateral is put up. Now we don't loan or cosign for more than we can afford to lose.
I know a local caterer who sometimes doesn't get paid for a simcha until the family is ready to make the next one. The local camp often does not get paid for a year. People are slow to pay pledges and tuitions so those depending on this money go borrowing. And why are they slow? Because of the vicious cycle. If they are waiting for frum customers to pay debts, and they are waiting for mosdos to pay them, etc.

Motek ↓

Sun, May 07 2006, 6:50 am

amother wrote:

Most checks we get bounce and on top of that we get a surcharge from the bank for each check that bounces. We've spoken to the Rabbi about this numerous times and he always repays us for the check owed, but that bounces too

So you are quite familiar with this, yet you keep working for him! So don't know why you doubt his honesty now when this has been the way he operates all along!

I'm sure you realize he's not a thief and he probably has a hard time financially, though this does not help you pay your bills! Seems obvious that you can only work for cash. And I agree with him, that it's best to pay you for each job. When they accumulate, then he REALLY doesn't have that amt. to pay you!

I think that you should tell him that you'd be happy to finish the job when he pays you what he owes you, in cash.

seniormom ↓

Sun, May 07 2006, 9:24 am

A similar thing happened to me with a frum non-profit org. I committed to certain free-lance work with the director whom I had known for years and thought I could trust. To make a long story short...I worked hard, produced what he wanted, and then he had no money to pay me.

He also claimed that no one in the office had been paid in several months either, and that he had to pay them first. I was angry enough at the delay and his attitude of not feeling any obligation to me and acting as if I should just be giving my work as a donation (I took the job because we really needed the money), but I became infuriated when he took a trip to Israel before any of us were paid (supposedly approved by a rav Confused

). My dh happened to know one of the Trustees, and spoke to him privately, and he put pressure on the director to pay (about 8 months later). It was a little embarrassing, because it looked as if I didn't want to contribute to this worthy org. All around, it wasn't a pleasant situation.

Too bad this whole thing happened, because now I won't have anything to do with this org. even though it does good work, and I think my talents could benefit them. I've also been reluctant since then to seek work from any frum org. not wanting to be burnt again. Working for non jews has its drawbacks, but at least I get paid!

Note to original amother: Besides not working for him anymore, do you know an big donor who helps keep this shliach afloat, who could speak on your behalf? It may be that the donor will end up covering the cost himself, but at least you'll get your due. It will also clue the donor into the situation, and he might want to keep tighter control of where his money is going, if not to pay bills.

morningstar

Sun, May 07 2006, 9:50 am

I think those of us who do free-lance work have all experiences slow/no payment. And over the years, I have decided that feeling long-term resentment has its own cost in terms of my own well-being.

Hence, my general rule is that I never let people owe me more than I would be willing to lose. This means that I don't start a new piece of work for a client before being paid for the old piece of work ( and when on salary, I never allow more than one month backlog-- I let them know I understand that they can't pay me, but if they can't afford me, I have to look elsewhere.)

If you are firm regarding your limits, and they need your work-- they will usually find some way to come up with the money.The unfortunate reality of people who are struggling to pay their bills is that the most patient, understanding providers of services are the ones who are paid last.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, May 07 2006, 1:46 pm

Thank you all, I really appreciate your answers. I definitely agree about not working fo him anymore until we get cash. I spoke to him and said we need the money by Tuesday. He said we'll have it. So we'll see.
I was very tempted to really give it to him about transgressing a halacha about paying workers on time, honesty etc. but I kept my mouth shut- otherwise I would've gone too far.
He said that to finish the job he'll pay us in cash from now on. We'll see if it happens- if not I'll be back on here to ask what to do next.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, May 07 2006, 2:01 pm

seniormom wrote:

I became infuriated when he took a trip to Israel before any of us were paid

I don't understand why you were upset. What does his private life have to do with your being paid? Maybe he was given tickets, maybe a lot of things. The organization might be struggling, that doesn't mean that he is struggling in his personal life.

morningstar - your "general rule" sounds sensible!

↑ seniormom

Mon, May 08 2006, 8:09 am

Quote:

Motek, sorry I didn't make it clear, yes, amother is correct, it was on the organization's dime, in the sense that he was using money that should have been going to the office staff--my situation paled in comparison to what these other ppl were going through. (BTW there have been many other instances of this individual benefitting personally from org. funds while staff and bills are not paid--can't go into more detail since it would help identify him & org.--but that's a whole new story!)

613

Wed, May 10 2006, 2:49 pm

This reminds me of a kollel my dh was looking into. The head of the kollel had found out at the initial meeting that I was not working at the time, so we really needed the money from the kollel.
Before we gave the kollel a difinitive answer (which was going to be no anyway). The Rosh Kollel called my husband. He said that he had to tell the truth that the kollel is not consistent in paying the guys, and he'd feel really bad if we were relying on this money to make it and then we wouldn't get it.
I was so impressed!
Amother, if you don't get your money, I really think you should get another Rav or Beis Din involved.

↑ southernbubby

Wed, May 10 2006, 4:08 pm

This is probably the situation that many organizations are in and many people have to choose between not getting paid, or leaving that kind of work. I marvel at dedicated teachers who continue despite going long periods without pay. I don't blame in the least people who decide not to do that kind of work.
Sometimes there is nothing a bais din can do since there are many loopholes such as saying that personal money is not organization money. Any time a person goes to work for an organization, whose money comes in by donation, there is the strong chance that that person's work will also become a donation. Rather than resent anyone, know beforehand that working for, or loaning money to a charitable organization is financially risky.