8 year old bullied at camp-- aidle response to nasty kids?

amother ↓

Wed, Jul 29 2009, 10:52 pm

My dd is attending a new day camp this year. We are a very friendly Modern/yeshivish family living in a very friendly Modern/Yeshivish community. The day camp is outside of our area, in a more mainstream yeshivish community. Basically, the other girls are much more "in-town" than we are, and, for whatever reason, totally nasty!!

The girls from our community that are bussed in are still getting along great, but my dd is being really harassed and bullied by a few of the girls from the other community.
They "potch" her, tease her, and are just nasty. My dd is very, very intelligent (3+ years ahead in school work), but emotionally just average for an 8 year old.

My mother told me not to bother calling the camp. She said I should teach my daughter how to handle teasing. I didn't take her advice. I did call the camp yesterday morning. It's been just as bad yesterday and today.

If I take my mother's approach....what can I possibly teach dd to say?? I can't think of anything that is both aidle and effective. It's just contrary to my daughter kind and friendly nature. We work so hard to teach her to really consider her words. We ask her to speak only in kind ways. How can I now teach her to tell the other girls to go jump in a lake?

I, myself, am very good at telling people off. It's a "gift" I have that I never, never use. It feels really good at the time, but afterwards you feel like a big loser.

sarab

Wed, Jul 29 2009, 11:02 pm

I can only imagine what a terrible feeling it is to see your child get picked on.
Of course, your motherly instinct is to side with your dd and show her you are
on those girl's case. But on the other hand you need to pose as a role model for your
child. It is one of those concepts that as a young girl I never understood. "why do parents
always side with the teachers?" But I can see now that it really is better Chinuch to sympathize
with your daughter but you cannot lose your cool about it. You may not give your dd the impression
that she should become feisty in turn to defend herself. The girls are young and immature and will only
fight back. She needs to know that the way the girls treat her does not refect on what a great child
she is and you are her fan team to give her that boost. As to dealing with the girls, you are not
in the position to help with that so stick to encouraging your child and assuring her that regardless of
what the girls say or do, she is still a great girl and even greater for ignoring the other girls.

Thu, Jul 30 2009, 9:26 am

Here's a perspective from a former bullied child - call the camp!

Some kids need to be taught how to behave. If the teachers/counselors are not monitoring the children's behavior, finding opportunitites to model proper behavior, praising healthy interactions and correcting the kids as needed - the camp director must be informed.

It is not up to the victim to be the grownup here.

IMHO, Modern/Yeshivish/in-town/OOT has no bearing at all.

If your daughter needs to develop her social skills, you can role-play common daily interactions with her.

My heart goes out to you and your daughter. Good luck!

freidasima ↓

Thu, Jul 30 2009, 9:36 am

First I echo the other posters. Either call or go down there. Potching is not name calling and although neither are acceptable, one is much more serious than the other.

Second, unfortunately there is no eidel effective way to deal with bullies.
Buillies only understand more power. Meaning what will stop these girls is the power that the head counselor or head of the camp has over them. They would also not start up with someone bigger than they are or someone who could knock the #*$*( out of them, just a fact of life.

Parents to teach their children to answer softly or to walk away are letting their kids in for a life of trouble. My parents taught me that and that is the only thing that I can't forgive. I was really small, I was beaten up over and over by non jewish kids in my neighborhood in america. My parents always sided with the teachers and if I was repremanded it wasn't "what happened?" but "how could you be so terrible and your teacher is always right".

No no no no no.

I speak both as a mother and as a professional.
Teach your kids to answer back. Teach them martial arts to defend themselves. And no matter what, at least initially always take your kids side. NO MATTER WHAT. It's your kid against the world and you had better be at their side and cover their back otherwise that kid is in for trouble for a very long time.

Sorry to be realistic but aidel only works with people who are on the same wavelength as you are and have exactly the same values. Otherwise you come out the patsy and the loser. And it's kinda hard to convince a kid whose arm has just been broken by other hooligans that she will get a reward in olam habo for not having kicked them in the groin.

bigmomma

Thu, Jul 30 2009, 10:12 am

Make her ta chart to keep a written record of each rude comment or incident of hitting. Tell her you will give her a nickel or sticker for each one to be added up for a prize. This will leave her wanting more nasty comments etc. Not only will their comments roll right over her but she will be benefiting from each one! When the girls see she is not bothered but actually anticipates their bullying, they will no longer get anything from it and will stop!

↑ freidasima

Thu, Jul 30 2009, 10:17 am

EXCUSE ME?????
You are encouraging this little girl of 8 to WANT TO BE HIT????

Sorry but this kind of behavior is not on my radar. There is a clinical name for this that I won't bore you with but please remember we aren't just talking about rude names here, this kid was "potched" by other kids. In my dictonary that means that she was "hit", "slapped around", "kicked", "forcibly pushed" etc. Any or all of the above.

NOW do you want her to make a chart of each time she was "potched" and get money for it? She can use that money afterwards for her therapist, thank you.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 30 2009, 10:24 am

Ok gonna put this one in anon.........
I actually had that issue with one of my kids when she was like 4?
anyway... went down..... nada..... called, nanda.. spoke to parents ...nada
I got down on my knees to be kids height,, and taught her how to punch back.
( yeah the kid was actually getting punched)
NOOOOOO
NOT my first, 2nd,, third or zillionth choice
it was really my last resort after having exhausted all other avenues.
------AND IT WORKED.
kid no longer got punched after she faught back.
and mamala,,,u know who u r ( shes on this site)
luv and xxx,
-ur mama who did her best.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jul 30 2009, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

This reminds me of a story about my mother as a little girl. A little boy in her kindergarten class colored on her tights every day which made my mother (and grandmother) upset. My grandmother called the boy's mother said, "If it's bothering your daughter, teach her to fight back by herself." So...the next morning my grandmother sent my mother to kindergarten with a bold red marker and told her to "make a mark across that boy's shirt." She did and that took care of everything!

SingALong

Thu, Jul 30 2009, 11:13 am

I just had this with my DD age 5 with some of the kids in the neighborhood (see thread titled neighborhood bullying.)

I approached the problem form all angles at the same time.

firstly, for my DD, I bought her the book "stop picking on me" it really helped kids identify bullying, and how to deal with it. I told my DD to avoid the kids who tend to bully her, go to an adult when it occurs, and understand that the bully is the problem, not her.

I also spoke to the bully's mom at length. she spoke to him about it and in addition to her reiterating that he must never hurt my DD, she fished out what bothered him. I told my DD how not to act around him ie annoying, and she must share her toys, etc. and the bully's mom was on top of it on her end. also, I encouraged my DD to befriend other kids. bully's will hesitate to pick on those who are with friends.

I would do as follows:

1. call the camp director, ask her how she deals with bullying, im sure you are not eh only one. explain you wish to discuss this with your DD counselor as well.

2. call your DD counsellor, be specific, and reiterate that you expect her to prevent it and encourage your DD to cultivate other friendships. tell ehr there is know such thing as "oh I didnt realize" seh needs to be sharp, look out for the bullying, be preventative, like dont have the girls sittign near her, etc.

3. give your DD strength. teach her about bullying, it exists everywhere this may not be her only exposure. tell ehr how to avoid bullying by sticking with other friends (bully's tend to target loners more) and not to approach the bully girls at all, even to be nice, just AVOID them. also, how to act if they do continue like telling the counsellor/you/camp director. boost your DD self esteem at home with projects, other friends in the b=neighborhood so she has positive aspects of herself she can draw strength from.

4. if non of the above work, call their parents. no parent wants to hear that that kid is being bullied, but even worse is when they hear that their kid is the bully. however if the whole gorup is getitng the same message from their parents simultaneously it will be more effective.

I wish you much hatzlacha in dealing with this its so hurtful when its your kid that's picked on. I would love to hear how it was handled and what worked best

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 02 2009, 1:02 am

OP here:
Thanks for all of your feedback and suggestions.

This was not a post asking for "support", but I was surprised by how harsh some of the comments were towards me. Maybe I'm just being sensitive. Maybe I left out details that would explain more. It doesn't matter. Suffice it to say that I'm a very involved parent, perhaps too involved in most cases. I'm just trying to handle this effectively, but with sensitivity to my daughter. She is annoyed by this bullying, but she seems to be really enjoying camp, have a lot of friends there, etc. As much as it's breaking my heart, it doesn't seem to be troubling her as much as it is troubling me.

I am not able to physically go down to visit the camp. I am able to pull me daughter out of camp. I'm not sure that's what my daughter wants, though. I'm not really going to leave it up to her.

I called it "potching" because that's what my daughter called it. In my family, potching meant a little tap on the behind to get you moving in the right direction. Is that universal? My daughter defined it as "less than hitting, more than touching". I honestly don't know, and can't know, what's going on. I have never met any of her counselors or fellow campers, besides the ones she rides bus with.

I did speak, at length, with the administration before signing my daughter up. We have many friends who send to this camp, and everyone says it's great. Just so you all know, I really looked into it before we chose the camp.

Here's my plan:
I'm going to call up the administration tomorrow (Sunday) and tell them that I already spoke with the counselor and have had no success. I will threaten to pull my daughter out of camp if it's not all better by Tuesday. That's the only leverage I have.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 02 2009, 1:15 am

OP here again:
RE some of the other suggestions:
I don't know the parents names/phone numbers. My dd doesn't even know the other girl's last names.
My husband is really into me calling the parents. Maybe I should tell the camp to either call the parents or give me the numbers? If I were the counselor, I would call myself rather than give the numbers.

My daughter and I read an article from Wondertime magazine. I don't really agree with it completely, but there were some nice jumping off points there.
Wondertime article on bullying

I realize that many of you have had your own bullying experiences. I think that your personal perspective are very valuable here. But...my daughter is very comfortable verbally. With a little encouragement, I'm sure she could really cut these girls down. She wouldn't need to punch, she could "use her words" to tell them how pathetic they are. I'm just not sure I want to tell her to do that. We are a sharp-tongued family-- something I was hoping NOT to pass down.

Anyone ever see "The Incredibles"? I kinda feel like that.

ValleyMom

Sun, Aug 02 2009, 1:19 am

My kid, who is built like a truck finally broke down and decked the other kid in the stomach. He was doubled over and crying. After the principal spoke with both of them she called me in--she and I both decided my son would not be bugged again for a looooooong time. Ant it's true. One good swift well placed punch and that took care of the bullying.
As a teacher I think it's terrible parenting but as a mom all I can say is WooooHooooo!!!
Sorry in advance for the hypocricy... But being a mom is one thing and being a teacher is another thing.

chanahlady

Sun, Aug 02 2009, 1:36 pm

As a girl who was teased and bullied horribly in middle and high school, I think if your daughter has the chops to verbally cut them down to size, she should do it. I was shy and just took everything that mean girls threw at me, and all it did was drop my self-esteem to the floor for years. To this day I experience ramifications from it that I don't think would have happened if I was strong enough to effectively fight back. If your daughter feels she can handle it with a few choice words, IMO she should go for it and feel no remorse. Maybe she'll get the bullies to see how it feels for a change -- they might even learn a lesson from it and stop this stupid cycle. Bullies are the worst. Good luck!

ABC

Sun, Aug 02 2009, 4:31 pm

it sounds incongruous that she's being bullied repeatedly, yet tells you that she's enjoying camp. who could enjoy an atmosphere where they are repeatedly being bullied? potching aside (which even if it doesn't actually hurt, can feel very threatening), to spend a day somewhere where you know you are going to be harrassed and then come home and tell your mom you are happy there just does not add up to me.

is she putting on a brave face for you, mom? the fact that she's telling you about it at all is her way of reaching out to you to help. I think that the counsellors need to be alerted about what's happening and prevent it - 8 is still very young. and I also agree with the other posters who said she should cut the bullies down to size a bit. she should never have to resort to violence, but if she has a way with words as you mention, I think she should be given the green light to use it. or at the very least she should be encouraged just to act real confident and laugh in the faces of the girls who bully her.

and I would also see if I could invite some other, nice girls over to play with dd, so she has a group of friends who she's extra comfortable with. make sure your dd is the cool one with the right clothes, accessories etc so she doesn't stand out as a geek at all (I kjnow you didn't say she was, but you did say she is very clever for her age, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason behind the bullying.

I really feel for you and your dd. good luck.

Fox

Sun, Aug 02 2009, 9:18 pm

I don't want to become too theoretical and thus go too far off-topic, but I think bullying and plain old nastiness is something that we in the yeshivishe world really, really need to take seriously in our schools and camps.

Unfortunately, I've had teachers and administrators basically tell my children that they were lying or exaggerating about incidents because the predator was "from one of our best families." Also, I am sorry to report that money and influence talk when it comes to these matters. The leverage of taking your child out of school or camp isn't so great if the administration doesn't really care if you're there in the first place.

My DH has such fond memories of his kollel years, but I find myself recoiling when he mentions some of his old buddies -- knowing that their daughters have the foulest mouths around. And I don't mean "swear words"; I mean speech that is hurtful and insulting for no good reason. Frankly, I'd rather hear the swear words.

For example, two of Chicago's finest young ladies chatted with my DD, who was watching her babysitting charges at the park on Tisha B'Av afternoon. They apparently felt the need to tell her how "lame" it was that she wasn't going to sleepaway camp. On Tisha B'Av! DD told me this story conversationally, with no particular malice; she simply believes that people affiliated with a particular group act this way.

Until our administrators, teachers, camp directors, et. al., become brave enough to enforce behavior codes that come within a fraction of the "frumkeit" demanded by their tznius codes, bullying and hateful behavior will be excused away and swept under the rug. When hateful communication gets a young lady expelled faster than a too-high hemline . . . that's when bullying will suddenly become a less intractable problem.