Book "Unchosen" | Imamother

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Hobbies, Crafts, and Collections -> Reading Room

Book "Unchosen"

1 2 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother

Sun, Jan 15 2006, 4:29 pm

DId anyone read that book? what do you say? What do you think?

After reading this book if I would be an FFB I would leave the religious life. B"h I'm baalas tshuva and saw a real world

amother

Sun, Jan 15 2006, 6:09 pm

I read the book and don't recomend it. I am FFB and won't go off the derech because of it but it is filled with the garbage thats out there and wouldn't want my children to read it and get some bad or crazy ideas. Such stories make me want to cry Crying

it pains me deeply to know how low some people have fallen.

amother

Sun, Jan 15 2006, 6:12 pm

I read the book. Really not interesting. Its about 5-6 people that went of the derech.

amother

Mon, Jan 16 2006, 2:18 am

amother wrote:

it pains me deeply to know how low some people have fallen.

I agree with ou that this book is full of garbage, but it's also some reason that this people had fallen so low. Maybe it's something for us to think as a mothers

Mandy

Mon, Jan 16 2006, 9:24 am

Excellent book and very thought provoking. Important to read if you don't want your child to go off the derech. A very explicit instruction manual of what not to do.

shoy18

Mon, Jan 16 2006, 1:02 pm

I read it and thought it was very intresting and makes you think that no matter how sheltered you make your world things can still seep in. Its important to teach your children whats out there so they wont find things by accident and be afraid to tell you.

He*Sings*To*Me

Sun, Jan 22 2006, 4:33 am

Unfortunately, I'm not ffb, although I AM endeavoring to raise my children frum from their births...for those who may not have seen some of my other posts elsewhere, I broke from the conservative movement as a young adult, before I met my husband (also raised USCJ-affiliated).
My question to my ffb "sisters" here, do you think this book would provide insight to me & prove useful in aiding my ability to parent my children (I have 3 daughters, so far!) to stay frum for life, and not go "off the derech"? Or, should I stay away from it?
What

southernbubby

Mon, Jan 23 2006, 10:15 am

I read the "Unchosen" and the only thing that I could really take from it is that we need to have answers ready when young people start to question. Also, this post-war group of Chassidim have created a group with intense restrictions within a society that has few restrictions. There are bound to be individuals who react negatively to this. It appears from the book, although who knows how accurate it is, that there is an undercurrent of dissatisfaction that may eventually lead to change.

amother

Sun, Mar 19 2006, 3:46 pm

amother wrote:

After reading this book if I would be an FFB I would leave the religious life. B"h I'm baalas tshuva and saw a real world

Uh, actually, since you're a BT you can't project what it would be like to read the book as an FFB. As an FFB, it provides zero temptation to leave religious life. I'm more than halfway through the book and none of the defectors' lives sound remotely tempting.

S. Levine's Mystics book is far, far better researched. The number of blatant errors in the Unchosen are unacceptable. Why didn't she have someone knowledgeable read through it simply to correct the basic halachic errors?

She writes of kol isha as though it's a hasidic prohibition when it's Shulchan Aruch and applies to one and all and is not a stringency.

She writes that the white sheet signals the husband that she's off-limits. Well, gee, I sure hope the wife let him know long before the white sheet became necessary that she got her period!

She writes that the time of ritual impurity is over on the woman's seventh "clean" day or the 7th day after the cessation of the menstrual period and to know for sure whether all bleeding has stopped, hasidic women wear white underwear and insert a special cloth. She writes that if the cloth comes out clean, physical contact between husband and wife may resume!

Uh, it takes her a number of sentences more before she qualifies that by saying she must go to the mikva. And again, is white underwear and bedikos hasidic stringencies or the law as it is practiced by anybody who observes the laws of family purity?

Is it "Hasidic ideology" or Shulchan Aruch that places a "heavy burden" on women to thwart male s-xual tempation? And is this heavy burden merely on the women or also on the man?

She uses "hasidic" way too often when the correct term is "religious" or "Orthodox".

more in the next post

amother

Sun, Mar 19 2006, 4:09 pm

The Introduction (and cover) led me to believe that her book would be about the Satmar community. Yossi is a major figure in the book and he's Bobov and lives in Boro Park!

Chaim is not even a Hasid though the author mistakenly describes him as one! How do I know that it's a mistake? Because my husband knows him well and has visited his hangout on countless occasions, most recently this motzoei Purim for the annual Purim party. Why does my husband go? To be a positive influence on those who attend. He taught a class there all of last year.

Next, Malkie. Also not a Satmar Chasid. I understand that she is mentioned in the book because of the aid she offers those who drop out, but a whole chapter on her on a book supposedly about Satmar?

My husband was involved in the "Yitzchak Fine" case. He spoke with the poor wife Sad

who said that he's mixing up their kids. She's raising them one way and he contradicts it to them ... and he thinks that's good Rolling Eyes

It's either ignorance or chutzpa for the author to write about the restrictions on activities on certain days as "something that someone else defined as work." Who exactly is the "someone else" if not G-d?

I enjoyed Mystics much, much more. The fact that the author of that book lived in the community that she wrote about for one year, really made a tremendous difference in the quality of her book.

maybe more to say when I finish the book

amother

Tue, Mar 28 2006, 10:29 am

I finished the book. Very unimpressed for reasons mentioned above.

She ignorantly promotes the lie that religious Jews "circumvent certain Sabbath prohibitions" not halachically, but deviously and her source is a book by an irreligious ignoramus that is described as follows (Amazon review):

Quote:

This book focuses on the topic of circumventing custom [make that "law"] with special emphasis on the ingenious ways Orthodox (and other) Jews have devised to avoid breaking the extensive list of activities forbidden on the Sabbath. After examining the sources of Sabbath observance as set forth in the Old Testament, the New Testament Rolling Eyes

, and rabbinical writings, some of the most salient forms of circumvention are described. Then drawing on Freud's insights as to the obsessive nature of religious ritual and his persuasive delineation of backside [inappropriate] character, an attempt is made to analyze such facets of Jewish character (in addition to circumvention) as an undue concern with purity, and a long-established tradition of indulging in nit-picking and argumentation.

His tour of such legal fictions includes eiruvim (circumventing the prohibition of carrying on Shabbat), prosbul (circumventing prohibitions for lending at interest), the use of a gentile servant to perform acts on Shabbat prohibited to Jews (a "Shabbos [gentile]"), substituting a cloth instead of your clothes to tear for mourning, sale of chametz for passover, and sheitls (wigs) as a hair covering for married women. He is unfamiliar with Jewish law, and it shows in his mistakes

... he takes a significant detour to argue that Mosaic prohibitions are based not on fear of death (apparently a common psychoanalytic interpretation) but on avoidance of feces ... shock

My husband brought up this book with the people at "Chaim's" place and they were singularly unimpressed with it.

When I read the chapters on two women, "Dini" and "Leah", I found myself sorry for their husbands and mad at them. In both cases, their husbands supported their secular explorations but their wives didn't appreciate that.

Leah had a horrible childhood but is this is a reason for her to abandon her husband whom she considers a "good person" who "treated her nicely"? He shared her secular interests and moved when she insisted on moving though he didn't want to, yet she destroyed his life and took his child from him. And she has the nerve to think she's a more moral person now than she was when she lived in a Hasidic community.

To sum up - the author spends most of the book on Yossi who is not even Satmar, who is mentally/emotionally disturbed. She has chapters on Malkie who is not Satmar, Chaim who is not Satmar and not even Hasidic.

The Satmar people she profiles are "Yitzchok Fine," "Dini" and "Leah".

On its own, "The Unchosen" is unimpressive. On its own, "Mystics ..." is very impressive. And when "The Unchosen" is contrasted to the Mystics book, its faults are that much more glaring.

ShiraMiri

Tue, Mar 28 2006, 1:33 pm

I enjoyed both Mystics and Unchosen. I didn't take away from either that the folks in the books represented ALL Lubavitch girls or ALL Satmar/Chassidishe. I just took what I could from the individual circumstances.

I found the "characters" in Unchosen rather sad. I don't understand why any of them had to completely go off the derech to enjoy the larger world. I think if any of them had more strength or backbone to stand up to their families - they could have lived a life guided by Torah, and still take amazement at the larger world - go to a museum, visit a library, travel. I mean, if the premise is their families won't accept them as anything else but with the hashkafa they were raised - why throw the baby out with the bath water? Live your life honestly, be frum, but adopt a more modernish hashkafa that lets you see the wider world.

amother

Tue, Mar 28 2006, 1:52 pm

I was in school with Malkie and it's sad to see what she's up to now.

amother

Tue, Apr 04 2006, 11:01 pm

http://footstepsorg.org/

What is your opinion on this website?

MommyLuv

Tue, Apr 04 2006, 11:07 pm

I flipped thru the book at barnes and noble, but decided not to spend the $$ on it, I plan on taking it out of the library..I guess I will have to commet after ive read it!!
by the way, for those who were calling it trash, is it because you feel so offended by someone pointing out some of harsher realities of life in the frum world? Rolling Eyes

chen

Wed, Apr 05 2006, 9:51 am

amother wrote:

http://footstepsorg.org/

What is your opinion on this website?

I was offended by the wording "those seeking to enter or explore the world beyond the insular ultra-religious communities in which they were raised. " Sounds like an unnecessary dig to me--and I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of such a community.

That aside, I applaud the basic premise of the organization. If people are going to leave the charedi world--and clearly there will always be some people who will--let them at least be able to make a life for themselves rather than end up homeless, sick, drunk, on drugs, or worse.

girlsmom

Wed, Apr 05 2006, 8:29 pm

Quote:

After reading this book if I would be an FFB I would leave the religious life. B"h I'm baalas tshuva and saw a real world

After just finishing the book, I can say as an FFB that it gives me absolutely no desire to leave religious life - quite the opposite actually...

[/quote]

amother

Wed, Apr 05 2006, 9:58 pm

Quote:

Live your life honestly, be frum, but adopt a more modernish hashkafa that lets you see the wider world

I agree. I consider myself Chassidic-Ultra Orthodox whatever...........
But with a more modernish lifestyle.
I think there are many Modern Chassidish people on this board. I'm not promoting being modern but if it will prevent someone from going off the derech then it's an option.
I know plenty Satmar people and Bobov and Pupa people who live a more open life. They are more modernish Chassidish.

Motek

Thu, Apr 06 2006, 8:59 pm

chen wrote:

I don't understand why it offends you. You haven't been a member of such a community, but many others have been and she is addressing them!

Quote:

That aside, I applaud the basic premise of the organization. If people are going to leave the charedi world--and clearly there will always be some people who will--let them at least be able to make a life for themselves rather than end up homeless, sick, drunk, on drugs, or worse.

The basic premise of her organization, as I understand it, is to enable formerly religious people to leave Yiddishkeit as comfortably/easily as possible. I don't find this to be admirable. I think it's tragic.

Thu, Apr 06 2006, 11:25 pm

I did not enjoy the book unchosen at all. I found that it put not nice thoughts in my head at a time when I was not feeling very strong. I am a BT. enough said.

Page 1 of 2

1 2 Next