Tired of self-centered teens and young adults

amother

Charcoal

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 4:05 pm

amother Amber wrote:

That's not the same thing as brazenly questioning, correcting, or debating parents or older family members twice one's age in public. They're not political dictators, they're elders with more life experience who the Torah says to respect, and for simply that reason.

Also, there's a difference between questioning someone one on one in private with a genuine sense of humility and respect, and between feeling that you have the right to brazenly override an elder relative without shame or diplomacy.

The attitude of by default offering unconditional respect is the attitude that leads to political dictatorship.

cbsp

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 4:37 pm

Aurora wrote:

I feel like a lot of the neviim were davka the ones refusing to bow to authority because they had greater respect for the One Above.

Separate, can anyone identify with this?

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

-- Socrates

There really is nothing new under the sun.

This is not the "own" that you think it is.

It's only proving the point that our frum society is experiencing a breakdown that was already described in the non Jewish societies years ago.

It's definitely not aspirational nor is it something to be celebrated or viewed as progress.

amother

Navyblue

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 5:00 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

I really hope questioning authority never becomes a good thing.

of course there are people in 'power' who may be abusive or dangerous etc but in general the lack of respect for authority equals a complete decline in civilization.. and of course religion.

everything about yiddishkeit is about respecting elders and teachers and obviously parents.
even if they are wrong! ( I am not necesserily refering to abuse ask your LOR in that case)

it is never a good idea to encourage children to rebel against authority because that is a VERY sippery slope.

just look at the world today. (secular culture as well)

You quoted my post, but this isn't really a response to what I wrote.

What is viewed as chutzpah in the girls schools is typically viewed as completely normal, and even encouraged in the boys yeshivos.

I'm sure we'd all agree that we don't want to encourage rudeness, disrespect or rebellion.

amother

Oldlace

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 5:52 pm

BaltoMom65 wrote:

If you’re enraged, offended etc by my two previous posts, reminder that you actually admire such chutzpah and brazenness. Yup. You're improving the world by changing it for your kid. Sure

With snarky/outright mean moms like you, what can we expect from our children? It was already said that we have a parent problem IF anything.

amother

Wine

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 5:53 pm

OP, in the 80s and 90s, we assumed that if most of the class genuinely tried and most of us did really badly, or even much worse than usual, there was something wrong with the test or how the material was taught. We got really upset when nothing was done about it.

These days, I think there is definitely a squeaky wheel issue. If one girl goes up to the teacher, every girl who feels similarly will go as well. Because as much as grades aren't technically a competition in high school (assuming you're not using a curve), when it comes to applying to seminaries or to schools only being willing to give certain jobs to girls with good enough grades so they can afford to miss classes and are good role models, the girls are competing against each other. So they feel a need for a level playing field. The girl who says nothing ever comes out behind the girls who always complain and are successful one quarter of the time. Having stellar middos doesn't help them when the middos are considered only after the grade threshhold is met.

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 6:32 pm

Peersupport wrote:

I am of the firm belief that when someone starts seeing youngsters this way, they are past their prime in educating todays teens.

As long as you can effectively teach children and teens without blaming or shaming them, you know you're doing good. If you can no longer relate to today's generation it's time for you to move on.

yes! yes! yes! thank you!

amother

Yolk

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 9:04 pm

amother Ultramarine wrote:

Same culture that doesn't send thank you cards for gifts (think bar mitzvah boys)
I personally did not let my kid use any gifts until we wrote thank you cards. By "we" I mean me, but at least he understood the concept.

This has nothing to do with lack of Hakaras Hatov. This has to do with some boys not having the ability to write out 50 thank you cards. (I made 2 bar mitzvahs already and yes my boys wrote thank you cards. I made it clear to them that someone took out the time to buy a gift, the least they can do is thank them. BUT I saw clearly how difficult it was and I see how some boys simply are not capable of it)

amother

Yolk

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 9:06 pm

amother Denim wrote:

My guess is that teachers don't always see the entire home picture, and also that even when they do, teens feed attitudes and behaviors off each other constantly. The things my teens learned from their friends- it is very hard to combat.
Quick example, I have been trying to get my 17 year old son his driver's permit for a while now. Firstly for ID and also because he is the type to drive his friend's car on a whim. So I figured, better with a permit than without. I'm not ready to get him driving lessons yet but with a permit he'd be a step closer. He will not read the driver's manual, the permit book. Refuses flat out. He says all his friends cheated on it and passed without an issue. None of them read the permit book and he won't be the one who does. He knows I don't go for cheating. I told him it's not happening, he will not cheat to pass. He can read the book like every teen besides his friends and do his best to pass. We are in a standstill. So what did I gain? He doesn't have an easy ID card to hold onto, he'll end up driving without a permit at some point soon, and he thinks I'm the strictest stupidest most interfering mother. Hopefully in there he is also learning a lesson in honesty. Who do I have to thank? His friends who were somehow allowed to cheat on their permit tests. Maybe I'm proving the point now about parents who don't say no to their kids. Or they don't know what's going on with their kids.

I think there is a list of sample questions online that you study again and again. That's how a lot of boys study. How is that cheating? Is that what he wants to do?

amother

Papaya

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 9:21 pm

amother Yolk wrote:

This is nonsense. Unless a child is special needs they can write thank you notes.

My very kvetchy 13 year old did it with my overseeing it. I told him to write 2 notes a day, five days a week. Within 2 months all notes were done. Yes I needed to remind him 4 out 5 days a week but he learned that when someone gives you a gift you show appreciation. He also saw me writing thank you notes after having a baby and people sent gifts or meals and realized I practice what I preach.

If a kid isnt doing it its because his parents arent prioritizing teaching him hakaras hatov.

amother

Denim

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 9:28 pm

imamommy5 wrote:

No but she's saying that most of the class is asking for a higher grade that means that most of the girls don't know the material shetaught!

Not necessarily the teacher's fault. In my daughter's high school class, most of the girls talk to friends instead of learning during class. The teacher tries her best. Out of 15 teachers, they are quiet for exactly 2 teachers.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 10:03 pm

I've been a teacher for 15 years, mostly in high school, and while my teachers' room is full of laments about yeridas hadoros and "kids these days" (which, I imagine, is something that every high school teachers' room discusses in all decades), I don't think the main issue is an increase in narcissism or a real decline in middos.

It's a decline in attention span, academic knowledge, reading and writing skills, an increase in secular worldliness, and somewhat an increase in sleep deprivation, and we're pretty sure that screens/Internet/smartphones/digital media generally is the culprit.

Sure, some teens need to work on their middos. But this has always been the case with teens, and it's a developmentally normal thing for them to be working on.

amother

Denim

Mon, Apr 08 2024, 11:16 pm

Possibly people are reading these posts as an attack on teenagers' whole person. For me at least, it's really not like that. Teenagers can be kind and generous sometimes and entitled at other times. Nobody is perfect, certainly not adults, but it is still okay to state an observation and discuss it. Teenagers can be exhausting. All types of people can be exhausting.