Satmar protest against Israel/Netanyahu's speech

Imogen

Thu, Mar 05 2015, 3:48 pm

sequoia wrote:

It doesn't freakin matter how YOU view it. It IS a chillul Hashem, because every single godd@mn murderous anti Semitic Jew hater on the planet invokes the "very religious ultra-Orthodox satmar" as being *on his side*.

People. Who. Murder. Jewish. Babies. Say. You. Are. On. Their. Side.

Got it?

Thank you Sequoia. You said it, anti zionists condone anti Israel murder against Jews. Period

I was in Israel during the last elections and saw the division and ill bred hatred the Satmar rabbonim created as they encouraged people not to vote, whilst insulting and deriding Gedolim that supported participation in Israeli democracy. If Satmar hate Israel so much, why attend a grandchild's wedding there, wait a minute, Satmar have families in Israel, really?????? Cannot be part of the pre 1948 yishuv, I thought Satmar were Hungarian, and part of the once many and brilliant chassidic traditions to emerge from Hungary. So what are they doing in Israel at all???

The cry of Israel's enemies is simple, " Hamas Hamas Jews to the gas|" ask any arabic speaker to tell you what Israel's enemies say, they do not say Zionists, they say " Yahud" Jew, and they always said this. My grandmother and her family are from an old Yerushalymi family who lived in the Jewish quarter from the 1800s, and always arabs tried to kill them, attack them and torment them, frum Jews in Yerushalyim carried guns to protect themselves. They davened and they defended themselves and their community, just as David Hamelech did, " meek yidden" are a creation of galut. I am not pro Netanyahu, I do not like his policies, but I know one thing, the end of Israel means the death of millions of Klal Yisrael, and those blaming Israel for anti semitism do not have the sechel to realise all over the world countless regimes and governments engage in difficult wars against their enemies, but I do not see the streets swarming with activists denouncing the human rights violation of Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, China, Egypt, oh my I cannot name all the culprits on Amnesty's lists, but Israel is number one pariah state, because its Jewish.

Israel does not cause anti semitism, it is singled out for abuse and aggression because of anti semitism. How can Jews daven to Hashem and recite the shema with pure hatred for those protecting the lives of Am Yisrael, our holy shrines and legacy. We can have differences of opinon, but if I demonstrate alongside supporters of Hamas and Hezpollah I am making my feelings known, as a collaborator.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Mar 05 2015, 4:01 pm

amother wrote:

No, I haven't. What's it about?

Em Habanim Semecha:
Rav Teichtal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y.....chtal
Em habanim smeicha: Eim Habanim Semeichah, written in 1943, is Rabbi Teichtal’s comprehensive treatise on Settlement in Eretz Yisrael, Messianic Redemption, and Jewish Unity. Rabbi Teichtal’s personal history lends significance to this work.
Born in 1885 to a respected Rabbinic family, Rabbi Teichtal studied under the tutelage of some of the noted scholars of his day and was recognized at an early age as a talmid chacham. He served as the Rabbi of Pishtian, Czechoslovakia where he established the Moriah Yeshiva. His opinion on halachic matters was sought by many throughout Europe, and his responsa were published in a three volume work entitled Mishneh Sachir. During his 20 years in Pishtian, Rabbi Teichtal became a recognized Rabbinic leader of the so-called “Ultra Orthodox” world and shared the prevalent anti-Zionist sentiments of that community.

After Hitler’s invasion of Czechoslovakia, Rabbi Teichtal became active in relief activities in an effort to ease the plight of his community. When deportations began in 1942, he and his family went into hiding. At this point, Rabbi Teichtal came to the realization that the neglect of Eretz Yisrael had been a serious mistake. There, in the attic in which he was hiding, with virtually no books at his disposal, Rabbi Teichtal began the writing of Eim Habanim Semeichah, which he completed in one year. Unfortunately, Rabbi Teichtal did not survive the holocaust, dying Al Kiddush Hashem on a train on the way to the Mathausen concentration camp in January, 1945. His book, however, was deposited with a gentile family and retrieved by his daughter after the war. Thus his legacy and his teachings survived

Eim Habanim Semeichah presents classical sources in support of the settlement of Eretz Yisrael and the unity of the Jewish people as necessary preconditions for the Messianic redemption. Rabbi Teichtal advocates the concept of natural redemption that had been posited 80 years earlier by Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer. He also finds merit in the settlement efforts of the non-religious chalutzim, although he exhorts them to adopt Torah observance. The settlement of Eretz Yisrael is, according to the author, the beginning of a process of repentance and unification that will result in the Messianic Era. Rabbi Teichtal acknowledges his previous rejection of active settlement of Eretz Yisrael and engages in a psychological analysis of the ongoing rejection of this idea in the Orthodox world in spite of the grave situation of the Jews of Europe.

Many of the sources and ideas in Eim Habanim Semeichah are as relevant today as they were when the book was written. It is an important contribution that this work has been made available to the English speaking public.

Frumdoc

Thu, Mar 05 2015, 8:15 pm

Things I have never understood, including: why the Satmar Rebbe was ok with using the Zionist movement to escape the Nazis, while simultaneously blaming them for the deaths of people murdered by the Nazis.?

Why won't Satmar go to Yad Vashem? They don't believe in the Shoah? It is all a lie?

And, do the same people (whether Satmar, NK or whichever branch of anti Israel chareidim they are) who visit Iran/ Hamas/Quatar and support them financially and vocally join in their celebrations whenever an Israeli jew is killed by Palestinians, whether by terrorism or in battle?

Do they dance in the street when Israel loses a battle or a tank is blown up?

And what do they or would they actively do to encourage the end of the State of Israel in order to "bring Moshiach"?

Participate in suicide attacks? Fund Hamas's tunnels so that Jews can be killed in shul on Rosh Hashana? Daven for a nuclear strike by Iran on Tel Aviv?

And if they get their wish, of the utter annihilation of the modern state of Israel by the Arab world, and Moshiach doesn't come on that day, will they see this as a victory? Even or especially if it would be Shoah #2, with half the world's Jews killed, as long as it includes the Israeli secular ones? Will they be dancing in the streets hand in hand with their Iranian and IS friends?

Or isn't it a well thought out strategy?

amother

Thu, Mar 05 2015, 9:05 pm

sabich wrote:

Ladies who heard and read Megillat Ester today, did the Jews quietly stay home to avoid those that had tried to destroy them?????

They fought back and killed their enemy, go to your megillat Ester, it is there in simple and clear language.
75, 000 were slain, with our Ester and Mordechai firmly behind the need to avenge and remove those seeking our extermination. This took place quite a few years before zionism, those Jews were in galut too, but they defended themelves, I should add. I hate bloodshed and the decry the death of anyone, but self defence and survival is an altogether different matter.

I cant help but wonder where we would be today if Mordechai and Esther decided to take the first train out of Persia after telling the Jewish people that they should just trust in G-d. Would we be celebrating Purim today?

Because that is exactly what the Satmar rebbe did yet for some reason Satmar celebrates the "miracle" of his survival every year (Kaf Aleph Kislev) despite him turning his back to his own congregation and taking the Zionist train out of Europe. What would have happened if the satmar rebbe would have done what Mordechai and Esther did, imagine how many jews he could have saved that way.

I guess Netanyahu acted more like Esther and Mordechai when he came to plead his case before congress and is more of a leader than the satmar rebbe ever was.

amother

Thu, Mar 05 2015, 11:19 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

Things I have never understood, including: why the Satmar Rebbe was ok with using the Zionist movement to escape the Nazis, while simultaneously blaming them for the deaths of people murdered by the Nazis.?

(The Zionists hijacked the rescue operation, begun by others. Many more yidden could have been saved if not for their willingness to sacrifice the shtetl yidden of europe for the greater goal of the establishment of a state. See Ben Hecht's Perfidy for related details.)

Why won't Satmar go to Yad Vashem? They don't believe in the Shoah? It is all a lie?

(Chas veshalom!!! The museum puts tremendous emphasis on the active resistance, like the Warsaw uprising, not giving due credit to the spiritual resilience of the yidden during the darkest time in modern history. It also emphasizes the establishment of the State and the rallying cry of Never Again).

And, do the same people (whether Satmar, NK or whichever branch of anti Israel chareidim they are) who visit Iran/ Hamas/Quatar and support them financially and vocally join in their celebrations whenever an Israeli jew is killed by Palestinians, whether by terrorism or in battle?
(I don't know where you get the idea that we financially support any of the bloodthirsty reshaim you listed. And we cry along with all of klal yisroel for every drop of Jewish blood shed. Again, please don't conflate NK's partying with our enemies with our opposition to the State ideologically. To most of us (including the Rebbe) opposing the State does not equal supporting terror.)

Do they dance in the street when Israel loses a battle or a tank is blown up?

(Heavens, no!!! a blown up tank means Jewish casualties. Why would we rejoice over that?)

And what do they or would they actively do to encourage the end of the State of Israel in order to "bring Moshiach"?

(Nothing. That's exactly the point I'm making. We are not doing anything on the political or military front. We are not lobbying Congress to stop Iron Dome. We are not demanding an American takeover of the State or other such nonsense. We serve as a reminder to world Jewry that we still need to pray for Moshiach's reign, NOT ONLY PRAY FOR ISRAEL'S SUCCESS. They are not one and the same. When (collective) you rejoice over Israel's military success we are happy that there weren't more casualties, but we are sad that (collective) you gain further (misguided) trust in the power of the State to serve as a safe refuge from all that has befallen us over our long exile.)

Participate in suicide attacks? Fund Hamas's tunnels so that Jews can be killed in shul on Rosh Hashana? Daven for a nuclear strike by Iran on Tel Aviv?

(Gevald!!! See above. Besides, I have family there. Why would I want them dead???)

And if they get their wish, of the utter annihilation of the modern state of Israel by the Arab world, and Moshiach doesn't come on that day, will they see this as a victory? Even or especially if it would be Shoah #2, with half the world's Jews killed, as long as it includes the Israeli secular ones? Will they be dancing in the streets hand in hand with their Iranian and IS friends?

(No, no, no, no. Sigh. The utter annihilation of the state of Israel with Jewish casualties, religious or secular, would be a tragedy. We pray for a peaceful resolution of this conundrum.)

Or isn't it a well thought out strategy?

(It's not a strategy. It's an ideology, based on an ideal, and serving as reminders of that ideal, lest we forget. We stand there and say, yiddelech, please remember that Moshiach hasn't come yet, and putting our trust in this ersatz version of our glorious kingdom is misguided, and may be delaying his arrival. Etc etc.)

This is getting exhausting. I really want to have a dialogue here, but if you're just going to be shooting sarcastic questions I won't be able to do this.

amother

Thu, Mar 05 2015, 11:49 pm

amother wrote:

Sequoia say it again. the chilul hashem has got to stop!!! It astounds me how so called "frum jews" can publicly talk against Israel and other jews. It disgusts me. Btw I'm from a Chassidic home and cannot stomach people who do that.
To the amother who blames Israel for anti Semitism and says that you know your history. Its so sad that you know so little, that you don't even realize how little you know. Read some books from the proper sources. I'm sure your familiar with the Chevron massacre, of yeshiva students btw, in the year 1929. Before E'Y was even a state. But it goes back to the beginning of time. Oh, and they like us even less when we rally against each other so thanks for that too.

I have to say these assumptions on how much I've read or learned are getting tiresome. I've read and learned plenty, and if you have specific recomendations please post them.

So far this thread we have the following theories regarding antisemitism:

A - It is because it is, and always has been (I've said that upthread.)

B - It was made worse by Jewish agitation and fighting for control of the land, whether as the movement zionism or as the state of Israel (none of these being the same thing as the mitzvah of yishuv EY through the ages).

C - It is made worse by the political tension being used as an excuse for hatred of yidden by all Muslims, not only Palestinians. (Basically point B, but this time it's just being used as an excuse.)

D - It is made worse by anti-Israel protestors who are used as an excuse, and show disunity among our ranks, therefore encouraging Arab hatred. (Did I get that right?)

Note, they are theories.

dancingqueen

Fri, Mar 06 2015, 12:10 am

amother wrote:

The answer is A. But no, d is off. The chassidish protests make other non Jews of the world scoff at us. Since it shows we hate each other as much as they hate us. And that doesn't make them like you better, just makes us all look worse.

So if the goal of the protests is to get other Jews to remember Hashem is in charge and not to rely on the idf, then why not have an asifa? Or write essays in mishpacha etc. Keep it internal if that is who the message is for anyway.

Either way, please try to convince the men in your life that there are better ways to spread their message that aren't a chillul Hashem.

amother

Fri, Mar 06 2015, 12:26 am

[quote="amother"]You picked the choice we all agree on lol. But I wasn't asking, just trying to put things in perspective.

I hate that we come across as haters. I personally am with you about the publishing articles etc. I'm here, talking to you...

And thank you for making it possible by finding a polite way of phrasing your words.

As for the men in my life, well, my immediate family didn't attend the protest because they were working (did I just shatter another stereotype? Twisted Evil

) but they are not opposed to it on principle. I'll leave it at that.

Oh and wait for someone to pipe up that you shouldn't be calling them chassidish protests.

For what it's worth, Netanyahu's speech in Congress (isn't that what this thread is about?) was indeed viewed negatively by many Americans, including many Jewish Americans, despite his eloquence. But that's neither here nor there because our reasons differ.

amother

Fri, Mar 06 2015, 1:19 am

sabich wrote:

If Satmer would have been in those times, they would have gone and protested
"hisgarus be'imos"

I think the biggest issue is , that Satmer wasn't the founder and is not the leaders of the state. if that was the case , all three "shvious" would already been solved...

Everything they're opposing is only because of this reason- think of all the "machlokes"/oppositions against organisations & kinaises with each organization they're not the head of for (for ex. Kinnus klal Yisroel against Internet, Siyum Hashas..)\

נקודה למחשבה