Satmar protest against Israel/Netanyahu's speech

Imogen

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 1:46 pm

Amother, I do not understand from which Torah or which megillah you are reading. We pray and cry out to Hashem everyday, as we did fighting Amalek in the Torah and the followers of Haman in megillat Ester. The Torah has clear halachas for military guidance when conducting war, we are not meant to be a passive people. Jewish passive victimhood is part of our secular history in galut, not our religious history in Tanach.

Pacifism is not a Jewish mitzva at all. I wish the world were pacifist in outlook and all wars would end, I do not expect others to fight my wars for me, I realise through the tragedy of my grandparents what I must teach my grandchildren.

The courageous United States of America will send troops in to defend its people and citizens the world over, why should Israel be any different? I understand this is a very difficult conversation to have, but believe me it is even more difficult for many Jews to stomach.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 1:51 pm

Lady Bug wrote:

Satmar amother, I love your posts. Although I completely disagree with your ideology, you are helping me see that there is a logical thought process behind these seemingly thoughtless protests. I also love your respectful, well-worded posts and how you are keeping your cool on a thread that others are trying to hear up. You got yourself a fan!

Aww, thank you... I'm blushing. There's more than one of us here, so on behalf of us both, I appreciate you informing me that I've achieved my objective of showing our human and logical sides.

I wish they would run a PR campaign or something, instead of allowing hotheaded youngsters (or even elders) to use hateful language at those protests. That's also terrible for klal yisroel, and it obscures our message.

Maya

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 2:03 pm

Lady Bug wrote:

I agree. As much as I think the ideology is completely wrong (and I urge you to read the book I mentioned above), I respect your intelligent way of writing and bringing your messages across.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 2:03 pm

sabich wrote:

So we differentiate between then and now. The times of Tanach, when God commanded us to war, and when the beis hamikdash existed and the neviim led us with their divine wisdom, no one disputes that we were required to take up arms then.

We ask how anyone in modern times can take it upon themselves to undo generations of submission and strike out in war against the nations of the world without Divine guidance, which will come when Moshiach does. Not only without divine guidance but with complete disregard for Hashem's commandments!!!

Equating the US army and the IDF is simply because you are looking at the facts on the ground, Israel is a nation like all the others (a tragedy in an of itself - we should be more than just another country on the map). We protest and remind everyone that we ought not have captured the Land in the first place, not that we should commit mass suicide right now.

Of course when there was a war last summer the IDF responded like any other army does. Our question is, why does the State exist while we are still in Golus, without divine permission...

Ideology, not methodology... and someone has to serve as the reminder.

For whoever mentioned KJ, how can you possibly compare political posturing with the organized terror tactics and murder by Jewish hands in British Palestine?

ally

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 2:32 pm

amother wrote:

So we differentiate between then and now. The times of Tanach, when God commanded us to war, and when the beis hamikdash existed and the neviim led us with their divine wisdom, no one disputes that we were required to take up arms then.

We ask how anyone in modern times can take it upon themselves to undo generations of submission and strike out in war against the nations of the world without Divine guidance, which will come when Moshiach does. Not only without divine guidance but with complete disregard for Hashem's commandments!!!

Equating the US army and the IDF is simply because you are looking at the facts on the ground, Israel is a nation like all the others (a tragedy in an of itself - we should be more than just another country on the map). We protest and remind everyone that we ought not have captured the Land[b] in the first place, [/b]not that we should commit mass suicide right now.

Of course when there was a war last summer the IDF responded like any other army does. Our question is, why does the State exist while we are still in Golus, without divine permission...

Ideology, not methodology... and someone has to serve as the reminder.

For whoever mentioned KJ, how can you possibly compare political posturing with the organized terror tactics and murder by Jewish hands in British Palestine?

But the fact is, we did.
So now what?

dancingqueen

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry, I didn't answer your questions.

Regarding living in Israel, the rebbe didn't forbid it, it's our Holy Land, after all, how could he? It certainly is difficult being Satmar and living there. Speaking the language too well is a sign of not being too shtark, paying taxes is painful, not voting in elections must be so strange - but they manage.

As far as the necessity for protests, the rebbe believed it was our chiyuv to be mocheh (there I go again with the transliteration!!). Why did so many other groups see the necessity for the protests against the draft proposals last year? Back when the government began intervening in the chinuch atzmai educational system many began to understand that the less we take from them, the less they are able to control our minds and hearts with their kefirahdig goals. I don't think many here disagree that the Israeli government is anti-Torah.

The Rebbe believed we have to keep reminding ourselves and world Jewry that this situation hurts. And "ven setit vei, shreit men". (When it hurts, you cry out in pain.)

ETA: and what next amother said. It's a declaration to the world, out there and in America, not to equate Jews with Zionism.

I and I'm sure many others do disagree that the israeli government is anti Torah. They are just anti half the nation receiving but not giving. A nation can't function that way, but that doesn't make them anti Torah.

And the fact is that publicly protesting Israel in America right now places you in the sand camp as anti Semites. We already agreed that a large part of anti Zionism in the world is thinly veiled anti semitism right? Publicly and loudly saying were Jews who don't support Israel is telling the world that you are self hating Jews since that's the large part of why they hate Israel. You get that right? You also agreed with me that writing letters to Jewish magazines and having speeches and Asifas would be the better way to get your meessage across to other Jews. So no, I still don't get it, and Im thinking maybe the protesters just want publicity? I don't know, but I still feel strongly that it's a chillul Hashem.

Btw, ftr, if Israelis want to protest israeli policy and do so respectfully I have no problem with that.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

I am so confused by your post. Perhaps because I too am satmar and apparently not as educated as you seem to be. Btw which satmar school did you go to?
Anyway, it seems as though you are contradicting yourself. On one hand, you say that we should follow the Torah/Tanach otoh you say we shouldnt because we dont have Divine Guidance (are these the words they taught you in satmar?)
What exactly do you mean by modern times? How are we disregarding Hashems commandments by following Torah/Tanach? Should we not follow the torah today? Should Rabbis make up their own halachos like our rebbe did? And how was our rebbe able to make up halachas without divine giudance? Im sorry, but I really dont understand what you are trying to say and would appreciate it if you can clarify this. Thanks.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 2:57 pm

amother wrote:

I am so confused by your post. Perhaps because I too am satmar and apparently not as educated as you seem to be. Btw which satmar school did you go to?
Anyway, it seems as though you are contradicting yourself. On one hand, you say that we should follow the Torah/Tanach otoh you say we shouldnt because we dont have Divine Guidance (are these the words they taught you in satmar?)
What exactly do you mean by modern times? How are we disregarding Hashems commandments by following Torah/Tanach? Should we not follow the torah today? Should Rabbis make up their own halachos like our rebbe did? Im sorry, but I really dont understand what you are trying to say and would appreciate it if you can clarify this. Thanks.

I am too busy to answer everything (alas, the Pesach countdown has begun) but I want to clarify this.

Halachos regarding war were meant for all time, but we do not start wars of our own accord. It does not say in the Torah on which date to declare war on which nation, right? Those specific details were revealed through the shoftim, neviim, etc in times when Hashem's presence was revealed clearly, unlike the hester panim today in golus. That's what I meant by Divine Guidance. (No, they did not use the phrase in school lol.)

I don't know what specifically you mean by halachos the rebbe made up, but whatever it is, I agree it's sad that we weren't taught which were halachos and which were chumros the rebbe asked his chassidim to adopt, so that we can make intelligent decisions on our own. Maybe that's the point.

But it's never too late to learn.

I just want to say that I understand your frustration. It's hard to know what to rely on when the very fact that you're learning for yourself is frowned upon.

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 3:09 pm

sabich wrote:

As I've said, I don't share the same philosophy as these amothers, I am grateful for the gift of the medina and accessibility to the land. But surely you're not equating a war such as Amalek in Rifidim, with Jews living under dhimmitude, or the whims of a poritz, etc. There are so many differences, and I'll name a few:
- in Tanach we had nisim geluyim, and a clear recognition of how close Hashem was and how He was guiding us
- we were geographically united then and not dispersed, and weakened, physically and as far as morale went.

It's almost apples and oranges.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 3:27 pm

black sheep wrote:

Am I the only one that saw this? Or is everyone else here okay with satmar amother calling Israel's actions "organized terror?"

I was referring to prestate British Palestine. Let me look up exact names of the various armed organizations.

ETA:
Irgun
Lehi
Hagana
Palmach

I was not referring to the IDF.

Regarding Rav Kook, I heard from what I consider to be reliable sources that the rebbe himself never used yemach shemo on Jews, it was reserved for nonjews like Hitler. There was a different acronym that was used for the zionist farfeerers, mostly the irreligious ones, but I'm not sure what it stands for.

In any case, I think I made it very clear that I disagree with the idea of hating the politics means we must hate the man.

Heyaaa

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 3:28 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Go back to my comment about hallel. It's the charedim who don't want to admit that there were nissim giluyim. Zionists, otoh do say there were nissim giluyim, hence they say hallel.

The war of independence began when 5 neighboring Arab countries attacked Israel. The Israelis had been skeletons in death camps at most 3 years earlier and the got off the boat without training and they would stuff guns in their hands and tell them be soldiers to defend the land. And they won!! How is that not an open miracle?

War of 67 was a similar story. The Arab countries had the old city and they wanted more so they declared war. I think there were 3 Arab countries involved this time. They started losing on the first day but the Arab leaders were too embarrassed to admit defeat so they told the army they're winning, and I forget the details but it was that stupidity that led to them losing.

About the tanach, we weren't together throughout all of tanach, geographically or morally. Although it would be nice to think we were.

Heyaaa

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 3:40 pm

amother wrote:

I agree. That's why I stopped arguing with you.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

I believe that the rebbe was against jews establishing a state on their own if they needed to start a war to get it. However, from what I understand, the Jews were given the land of then Palestine, now Israel. The wars only happened afterwards when they were attacked by the arabs. Maybe Hashem wanted us to have a land to call our own otherwise it wouldnt have been given to us. And once we had the land then we need to protect ourselves from harm as per Hashems commandments. How can Satmar deny/protest Hashems will?
http://www.simpletoremember.co.....bout/