"My ticket to Olam Haba"

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Motek

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:29 am

1stimer wrote:

What is the new concept. afaik the concept of suffering and nisyanos that we grow from increasing our olam haba is an old one.

She said:

Quote:

We were thank G-d directed to an angel of a person who introduced us to a new concept. Our child was going to be our ticket to Olam Haboh, the World to Come.

what's new about it you ask? well, have you ever heard of viewing one's wayward child as your ticket to Olam Haba?

Quote:

As for ur other point, of course it is wrong. Kiruv should be done b/c we feel so bad that Hashem's child is lost.

you think it's wrong? Yet, it's a view held by many frum people and its their approach not only to kiruv, but to all mitzvos.

In a different thread this point came up with bikur cholim. About how when you visit the sick person, they don't necessarily appreciate being your ticket to Olam Haba.

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:33 am

Quote:

Our child was going to be our ticket to Olam Haboh, the World to Come. He and his struggles, were going to become a gift, or a catalyst for us to grow both individually and collectively.

Motek I think you are taking it out of context. She writes how she is going to grow from it.

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:36 am

Quote:

Yet, it's a view held by many frum people and its their approach not only to kiruv, but to all mitzvos.

Can you be specific about the view? Is it that they do all mitzvahs for the sake of a reward?

Motek

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:45 am

1stimer wrote:

Can you be specific about the view? Is it that they do all mitzvahs for the sake of a reward?

all? who knows ... presumbably not. Some mitzvos are done out of habit, some due to chinuch, others because Jews are merciful, still others out of inspiration.

the view cited is a general one, that the primary motivation for doing mitzvos is to gain a share in the world to come

yes, there is reward for all our mitzvos
yes, there are great Sages who said this is our primary motivation for doing mitzvos

but, this "new concept" as she worded it, seems to me to go a step beyond that

as I asked before: did you ever hear of viewing a wayward child as a ticket to olam haba?

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:51 am

of course it is better to do mitzvahs l'shma, but that is a high level.

Motek what if we changed the word 'wayward' to 'sick'?

Motek

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:55 am

1stimer wrote:

of course it is better to do mitzvahs l'shma, but that is a high level.

yet many ordinary people, even you and me Wink

do mitzvos, at least on occasion, not for reward, right?

Quote:

what if we changed the word 'wayward' to 'sick'?

spiritually sick?
why?

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:07 am

Quote:

yet many ordinary people, even you and me Wink do mitzvos, at least on occasion, not for reward, right?

do u mean mitzvahs we do out of habit Wink

Quote:

spiritually sick?

no physically sick

Motek

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:16 am

1stimer wrote:

do u mean mitzvahs we do out of habit Wink

other reasons, that I listed before

Quote:

no physically sick

which illness?

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:19 am

no difference, I'm asking if u wled be so shocked if she viewed hving a physically sick kid as a ticket to the nxt wrld

gryp

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:26 am

I just dont get how people can be so sure of where theyre going to end up....

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:27 am

RG wrote:

I just dont get how people can be so sure of where theyre going to end up....

who is sure?

Motek

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:29 am

same as I said before - yes to the concept of l'fum tzaara agra, and no to what I consider a 'grubbe' concept and attitude

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:37 am

I'm still confused what is the 'grubbe' concept?

>feeling very thick!

gryp

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:48 am

I think we have different understandings of Olam Haba and how to "get there" which is why we think differently of this concept.

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 10:06 am

care to explain rg?

1stimer

Mon, Jun 06 2005, 12:33 pm

It seems not. Oh well.

Tefila

Mon, Jun 06 2005, 2:06 pm

Look Motek You're right conc who wants to be someones mitzvah case w/h your point about kiruv. since there are individuals that and make the other person feel they are a mitzvah case.

I highly doubt in this case the women is making her son feel that way I'm sure she is trying her very best. And not giving up!
With our tradgedy you don't think I told Hashem enough is enough even Avraham oveinu who had 10 tests said nomore and I after much less and kavayachel nowhere near his standing said enough is enough please whatever reason you had let it be a kaparah.
Someone can tell me I'm wrong dead wrong for that aproach and I will say unless someone c"v experianced a tradgedy etc or watching your child sink lower and lower they should not Judge

Motek

Mon, Jun 06 2005, 2:18 pm

freilich wrote:

With our tradgedy you don't think I told Hashem enough is enough

freilich!
there is nothing wrong with that approach!

I just don't see what it has to do with this topic Confused

.

I'll give another example. Maybe this will make my point clearer.

A woman told me that her 16 year old daughter's class was having a discussion with their teacher about Kibud Av V'Eim. The point about anticipating your parents' needs was brought up.

One girl asked - Anticipate their needs? But then we won't be a metzuve v'oseh and we'll get less schar (reward)! shock

what do posters think about this and how would they respond to the girl?

[a "metzuve v'oseh" means that someone who is commanded and does it, is greater than someone who is not commanded and does it]

Tefila

Mon, Jun 06 2005, 2:23 pm

Quote:

One girl asked - Anticipate their needs? But then we won't be a metzuve v'oseh and we'll get less schar (reward)!

That is a bit clearer Wink

Let me tell you when I grew up in a non-lubavitch school motek, that was thier approach! But when I switched to Lubavitch mossad when my family moved the approach was/is totaly different.... it's not a foreighn approach, there are some shitas that believe that way.

Motek

Sun, Jul 10 2005, 10:35 am

I read the following:

Quote:

Anyone that has gone through the Lubavitch school system knows that at the end of the day it's not themselves that matter, not their personal Shleimus, not even their Gan Eden. All that matters, all that a person should strive for is to fulfill Hashem's will. They will always ask themselves: "What am I here for? How can I affect as many people as possible? How can I be mashlim the Kavana (fulfill the Divine intent)?"

Case in point: A Shliach I know personally once did a Seminar together with Aish. Hundreds of people showed up and it was very successful. As the last people were leaving, the Aish Rabbi whispered into his ear: “Dovid, could you imagine what kind of Olam Haba awaits us after an evening like this?…”

Now since when do we do Mitzvos for Olam Haba? When we go on Mivtzoim (asking people to put on tefillin etc.) and have a successful afternoon, we don't go back thinking what a great reward we will reap for this Mitzvah, rather, we have genuine Simchah because of the Mitzvah that THOSE people have begun doing.

That’s why we find it so easy and natural to go out on Shlichus. So who cares if I won’t have such a good life, who cares if I won’t have Shleimus in this spiritual area or another. Nor do we think about our Gan Eden. As long as we are fulfilling the purpose of our creation -- and bringing the world closer to the fulfillment of it’s purpose, we’re all for it. This is similar to Avodas Hashem driven by love, not al mnas lekabel pras (for the sake of reward). In other circles this type of Avoda is reserved for Gedolim.

Even if many us fail to achieve the ideal of going on Shlichus, and we take it easy and enjoy Olam Hazeh (or Olam Haba…), we feel guilty.

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