"My ticket to Olam Haba"

Motek

Wed, Jun 01 2005, 7:23 pm

I read the following email (Daily Dose of Kindness) and am very perturbed by it. Although it's about her problem child, I did not put this in Chinuch because the point I'm bringing out relates to other aspects of Yiddishkeit too.

Here's part of what the woman wrote (the rest of her comments don't relate to this thread topic) and yes, her story is sad and it's awful for the parents, but again, I'm posting this to bring out a different point:

Quote:

My husband and I have had our fair challenge during these past five years as parents to an at-risk child. We became highly educated and gained a great deal of knowledge. The difficulty was that we couldn't prevent our son from sinking no matter how much we did right.

My husband and I went to therapy to learn how to cope. We were thank G-d directed to an angel of a person who introduced us to a new concept. Our child was going to be our ticket to Olam Haboh, the World to Come. He and his struggles, were going to become a gift, or a catalyst for us to grow both individually and collectively. Thus, my life took a full turn.

anybody else bothered by this new concept? Confused

gryp

Wed, Jun 01 2005, 9:37 pm

Quote:

Our child was going to be our ticket to Olam Haboh, the World to Come.

this is astonishing. they are comfortable using their child to benefit from? and in such a sad situation? I cant understand how someone can think like that.
to me it would be similar to saying "my kid's on drugs, im going to get us all on TV on one of those psychologist shows, and then we'll be famous and the whole world will know who we are."
what is the emphasis on here?
and how can one be so sure where he's going anyway?

stem

Wed, Jun 01 2005, 9:43 pm

It seems to me that they are thinking that the challenges that they have to go through having this difficult child will benefit them in Olam Haba. This is their Tafkid - to care for, and handle this at-risk child. Instead of bemoaning their fate, they are embracing it and growing from it. This is a very high level in my opinion.

gryp

Wed, Jun 01 2005, 9:54 pm

so theyre train of thought is that the suffering they have from their son will atone for their sins and they will be closer to getting their portion in Olam Haba.
it sounds a little different put that way, I understand it better.

yehudis

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 1:26 am

This reminds of Miriam Adahan's book It's All a Gift, where she says that we have to perceive everything that happens to us as a gift from Hashem and that ultimately we will benefit and grow through a difficult experience.

I think this is what the quote means, although I agree that it could have been phrased better.

Motek

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 5:37 pm

I will judge, freilich, because this woman is promoting a "new concept" and she would like to share it with me (and you) and show me how it revolutionized her life etc. etc. I can choose to accept this or reject this.

Now, if she had said, she was reminded of the mishna in Pirkei Avos which says, "l'fum tzara agra" - according to the pain is the reward, and that she is having such a tremendously difficult time but she knows she will see the fruits of her labor, that's one thing.

But the way she describes what she's doing now, it sounds like her son is a lost cause and her focus now is on other things.

chavamom

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 7:23 pm

I think they came to a realization that her son had free will and it might be that no matter what they did, he would not 'get better'. I don't know enough about the story, but he could have been grown, have left home, etc. Once a child is on their own and makes a decision to go off the derech (even if they aren't on their own, you really only have so much control), your only choice you have left is to work on yourself and your relationship to this person, no?

I don't think we can judge on this short excerpt.

Motek

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 8:45 pm

chavamom wrote:

I think they came to a realization that her son had free will and it might be that no matter what they did, he would not 'get better'.

true, we have free will, but parents should never, ever give up on their children

Quote:

your only choice you have left is to work on yourself and your relationship to this person, no?

perhaps, and if she said that, I would understand her

another example - I've read how people on the receiving end of outreach efforts sometimes resent the overtures because they get the feeling that they will be another "notch" in someone's belt. In other words, (even if they don't express it in these terms), they have no interest in being someone else's "ticket to Olam Ha'ba". They feel used and don't see it is as an act of Ahavas Yisrael.

Tefila

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 8:46 pm

Motek you think this email was an intellectual response only.? They r crying out in pain,. And though one mustn't give up and maybe not say it the way they did .But unless one is in someone-elses situation we cannot judge. It is heartbreaking, noone should ever know it.
Only a person who has gone through this can say wether it is right or wrong, and true I find it strange also. But who says it's wrong Exclamation

Ok I've edited it, b/c I misunderstood something from the email, realized after I reread it now Exclamation

Last edited by Tefila on Fri, Jun 03 2005, 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total

sarahd

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 3:37 am

If this is the comfort that someone finds in their agony over having lost a child, who am I to criticize? Perhaps it appeared in the Daily Dose as chizuk for other parents who might r"l be in a similar situation.

Pearl

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 3:56 am

Quote:

freilich wrote:

Motek you think this email was an intellectual response only.? They r crying out in pain, unless they have an open miracle they won't experiance lifes pleasure watching ones kids grow in the ways you and I know. And though one mustn't give up and maybe not say it the way they did .But unless one is in someone-elses situation we cannot judge. It is heartbreaking, noone should ever know it.
Only a person who has gone through this can say wether it is right or wrong, and true I find it strange also, But who says it's wrong Exclamation

and

Quote:

and that's what's important!
we should never really know what she is talking about!

gryp

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 9:32 am

I find it strange because I know most of the time rebellious teenagers who have been given a good chinuch will eventually come back in some way, shape, or form. all they are doing is trying to find themselves and where they fit into this world they have grown up in. the scary part is just watching helplessly as they sink and wondering how far down they will actually go before they "land" and start working their way back up.
so if the rebelliousness is their "ticket to Olam Haba"- do they want him to stay rebellious or not?
thats way I think its confusing.

1stimer

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 10:25 am

Quote:

Our child was going to be our ticket to Olam Haboh, the World to Come. He and his struggles, were going to become a gift, or a catalyst for us to grow both individually and collectively.

the way I understand it is that the parent's changed their attitude. They decided to view it as a nisayan and to grow from it. nowhere do I see them saying whether they had or had not given up on this child. Just that this too had come from Hashem and they were going to grow from it - so it would be their ticket to Olam Habah. Sounds like a very healthy perspective to me.

And of course rg they don't want him to stay rebellious.

gryp

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 10:33 am

I guess I just dont understand what "ticket to Olam Haba" means. if they would say we have changed our attitude and were growing from this experience, that makes sense to me. but if they mean it literally, that because of their rebellious son they will go to Olam Haba, it would seem to me that they would want him to stay rebellious. they probably dont mean it literally and im taking it the wrong way.

sarahd

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 1:19 pm

The tzaar that they're going through is their ticket to O"H. If their son decides to come back tomorrow, will Hashem say, "OK, you didn't suffer so much after all, no ticket for you"? I doubt it. Besides, as normal parents, even if so, they would surely give up their "ticket" to have their son back. Come on.

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 1:46 am

RG, if someone, chv has a sick kid, then they might say that the suffering we are going through is mechaper and will be our ticket to olam haba. BUT if they had a choice of course they would want their kid to get better.

we can't choose our circumstances but we can choose our reaction.

Motek

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:17 am

Freilich, Pearl, Sarahd - your sensitivity to this woman is admirable

However, as I wrote in the first post, this thread was not about the woman's sad situation and her pain. The only reason I started this thread was to FOCUS on the NEW CONCEPT the woman was taught.

In order to draw attention away from her sad story and focus on this point, I posted this:

Quote:

another example - I've read how people on the receiving end of outreach efforts sometimes resent the overtures because they get the feeling that they will be another "notch" in someone's belt. In other words, (even if they don't express it in these terms), they have no interest in being someone else's "ticket to Olam Ha'ba". They feel used and don't see it is as an act of Ahavas Yisrael.

which nobody commented on

can we get back to the thread topic please? Sad

1stimer

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:22 am

Quote:

The only reason I started this thread was to FOCUS on the NEW CONCEPT the woman was taught.

What is the new concept. afaik the concept of suffering and nisyanos that we grow from increasing our olam haba is an old one.

As for ur other point, of course it is wrong. Kiruv should be done b/c we feel so bad that Hashem's child is lost.