Separate Seating? | Imamother

chen

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 12:01 pm

Motek wrote:

Seminary girls and yeshiva boys should be fed by the schools they attend.

I quite agree; however, this is not always the case. there are institutions that basically close down and leave the students to fend for themselves on certain shabbosim and yomtovim. the kids have no choice but to "depend on the kindness of strangers", which is a strain on both the local populace and on those students who are shy and/or embarrassed to ask for favors.

Motek

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 12:05 pm

chen wrote:

there are institutions that basically close down and leave the students to fend for themselves on certain shabbosim and yomtovim. the kids have no choice but to "depend on the kindness of strangers", which is a strain on both the local populace and on those students who are shy and/or embarrassed to ask for favors.

A topic for another thread Smile

, one that is a major peeve of many people. Paying $10,000 and the sem girl has to shnor meals?!

yoyosma

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 2:23 pm

The only place I ever ate seperately from the men was in Crown Heights. I think it has to do with the HUGE amount of guests who come from all over the world and also because Succahs are built on tiny porches, there really ISNT a lot of room!

That being said, the choice between being comfortable or having a lot of Orchim is not something I care to address.

morningstar

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 2:48 pm

Quote:

Mumsy writes:
If families do not make yom tov "together" time, when will they have together time? Everyone is so busy running around, most people do not have dinner together on regular nights. Maybe that is why there are so many "teens at risk" these days, because families don't act like families and don't make together time important.

Mumsy, let's not blame the guests for the problems in the home. Families have to create together time seven days a week, twelve months a year. If the only time that families spend together is yom tov, then not refraining from inviting guests is not going to be enough to save the family. And if the family spends time together on a regular basis, having guests on yom tov, even if it is at times inconvenient, will not put the family at risk.

Personally, when I was growing up, a large part of the excitement of Yom Tov was hosting guests. It was almost competitive-- we talked about who had more guests the way kids might compare about who got more Chanukah gelt or who got more new clothes for yom tov. The squeezing and squishing to accommodate everyone was part of the fun. I hope that I manage to convey that excitement to my children as well.

morningstar

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 2:58 pm

Quote:

Motek writes:

Seminary girls and yeshiva boys should be fed by the schools they attend.

Yes, Motek, they should. But when I was in sem, I was not, and it is not happening today either. I remember the panicky feeling as a teenager, worrying about whether I would get invited before I would be forced to scrounge for an invitation myself, mortified when I was turned down... and the sinking feeling of dread when things fell through at the last minute.
Makes me awfully glad I am not in sem anymore. Looking back, I can safely say that I prefer the role of hostess to the role of guest.

mumsy23

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 6:52 pm

yoyosma wrote:

Its not about comfort, it is about the time you spend with your children adn the kind of succos experience you provide for them.

melalyse

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 6:52 pm

The point that I was trying to make was that this person felt that a parents #1 priority was to spend time with their children. If their children felt at a particular week they needed some attention from their parents then it is more important than iviting guests. And yes, kids go off the derech because their parents are machers with everyone and everything else that they have no time for their kids. I have guests at every single shabbos meal but I only have a baby. When I IYH have older kids I hope to have my own intution to know when we need just family time.

mumsy23

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 6:55 pm

morningstar wrote:

Quote:

WOE, hold it. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. OF COURSE we should have guests and OBVIOUSLY we don't NOT invite so that we can sit like kings in our succah with tons of room around a nice empty table!! I WOULD NEVER SAY SUCH A THING! I am the first to say everyone should have guests as I was always a guest growing up on shabbosim and yom tov (I am a BT - became frum at a very young age). My point was if you have to choose between having guesta or having your family at the table with you, I would say FOR SURE you should have your family. Nobody is talking about choosing between having guests and being a bit more comfortable!

AGAIN, I was addressing sarah's point about yom tov "not being a family time" - I was addressing that point specifically and nothing else!

anon

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 7:22 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's mostly the lubavitchers who are the most comfortable with the men and women separated.

From my understanding and experience with Crown Heights and Lubavitch, I see it stem from two things:

1) As someone mentioned before, there is a much much greater need to host guests in CH than in other places. In other places, you have to think about who you'd like to invite. In CH, tons of people are calling YOU to ask you to host them or someone they know. Guests fall into your lap who really need to be hosted.

2) In general, from my little experience and if you want to contradict me please feel free...Lubavitchers customs don't always value family togetherness as much as other frum communities. Men are very often running off to Farbrengens and day of the week. Also, my family spent one summer in a Lubavitch bungalow colony, and my father was one of the few fathers who actually had shabbas meals with his family. Most other men would have a farbrengen shabbas meal, and the women would come provide the food but certainly not join. Perhaps the sons joined, I don't know, but definitely not the daughters. There are lots of other examples which I dont' want to go into, but this has been my strong impression. This is the aspect which bothers me (not the first which has to do with a greater need to host guests).

a

mirisimma

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 8:27 pm

Mindy wrote:

SaraG wrote:

MIndy, you prob should explain what "haivng an ushpiz" means.

I'll bet that flew over the heads of most people here.

wait, not everyone celebrates the night of the ushpizin corresponding to a family member's name? Like if you have a kid or husbnad named avi, yitzy, yanky, moishy, ari, yossi, or dudi, you don thave a big party that night? Smile

thats so cool. Tongue Out

mirisimma

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 8:47 pm

in reponse to anon, we have tons of chassidish family, not lubavitch, and they do the seperate sitting thing, even on a reg shabbos. I think its just a part of life for them, and theyre ok with it. (have you ever had someone almost not believe you when you told them youre not upset with laws of tznius or shabbos or kashrus?)

and I know bunch of lubavitxhers who sit together, even on succos when possible. ii think it depends on the family. I dont think its so fair to say all lubavitchers dont value family.

I also agree that its not a good situation to be relying on yom tov for family time.

I also hate when I'm invited to people who KNOW I'm not expecting to eb sitting seperately, and they dont warn me, and then plop! I'm seated alone, usually with ppl I dont know Smile

you know were debating back and forth about what the 'RULE" for succa sitting should be. and what steadfast protocol will educate the kids best. really, we only have 613 steadfast rules. use those to make decisions... if you have guests and having them over is important for whatever immidiate reason you see in front of you: chessed, community togetherness, whatever, then have them over. if there isnt enough room for everyone, then sit seperately. if there are issues going on and the kids need your time bc you dont have alot of it, then dont have them over and the family should sit together. or spend time with kids before and after meals. just think through each situation to make best decision, and your kids will learn just that.

anon

Thu, Oct 05 2006, 9:23 pm

Quote:

and I know bunch of lubavitxhers who sit together, even on succos when possible. ii think it depends on the family. I dont think its so fair to say all lubavitchers dont value family.

First of all, I would never say ALL. And I also would never say that they dont' value family. Of course they value family, they're normal human beings. Rather, many of them (alot more than you'd see in other frum communities) don't spend time together as family as much as others would consider "normal". You generally would not see men having farbrengens every single shabbas day meal at other types of bungalow colonies. You would usually expect that men would be with their families for all shabbas meals.

And yes, some chasidish groups also sit separately, I forgot about that. I don't know much about their customs so I can't talk about it.

Ruchel

Fri, Oct 10 2008, 8:55 am

Quote:

if you have guests who are not very frum or just starting you might want to let them know about separate sitting if you know in advance cause to them it might make a difference.

I didn't see this gem!

You know, there are frum people who value couple time too!

Of course if I'm invited in Mea shearim I will NOT expect mixed, but if I'm invited even at a Chabad event I'll expect at most separate but close tables... so people should warn if they have ideas of how their guests should behave... especially if they are the only option (out of town chabad/host, etc), some people would rather cancel than being alone among strangers for a yomtov. In fact if you are the only option I happen to think you should be the tolerant of what is halachically ok (basically, any mixed except during prayer), because it is unfair to guests of other (orthodox) levels. If you disagree, which is also your right, you should let someone else host.

It used to be common knowledge...