Sleeping in a succa

jewgal84

Wed, Sep 06 2006, 5:11 pm

only1 wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

but not everything he said is what the rest of Jewry took as psak halacha (e.g. his views on the sukkah for one)

the Rebbe has views on the sukkah?
I dont think ive ever heard of them. what are they?

I know my lubavitcher cousins do not decorate their sukkah, and they will sit in the sukkah if it's raining or not.

We don't sleep in the sukka either.

But that's not halacha, that's minhag Rolling Eyes

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 3:04 am

jewgal84 wrote:

only1 wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

but not everything he said is what the rest of Jewry took as psak halacha (e.g. his views on the sukkah for one)

the Rebbe has views on the sukkah?
I dont think ive ever heard of them. what are they?

I know my lubavitcher cousins do not decorate their sukkah, and they will sit in the sukkah if it's raining or not.

We don't sleep in the sukka either.

But that's not halacha, that's minhag Rolling Eyes

Quote:

ספר זמנים, הלכות שופר וסוכה ולולב
פרק ה: כיצד היא מצות הישיבה בסוכה: שיהיה אוכל ושותה ודר בסוכה, כל שבעת הימים בין ביום בין בלילה, כדרך שהוא דר בביתו, בשאר ימות השנה
Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Shofar and Sukka and Lulav
Chap 5
How does one fulfil the mitzvo of sukka?
That he eats and drinks and lives in the sukka the whole 7 days, whether during the day or at night, in the same way as he lives in his house the rest of the year.

Quote:

שולחן ערוך, אורח חיים, סימן תרלט, ב
אוכלים ושותים וישנים בסוכה כל ז' בין ביום ובין בלילה אפילו שינת ארעי

Shulchan Aruch, Orach Hayyim, 639:2
One eats and drinks and sleeps in the sukka all 7 days, whether by day or night, even temporary sleep (eg a nap)

I'm quite sure that it says you have to sleep in the sukka in the mishna and gemora too, but I don't know the sources.

How can people say it's a minhag or chalila that you don't have to do it????

It's a Torah obligation AFAIK. Now, there are also halachos that you don't have to sleep there (or eat, for that matter) if you can't keep
תשבו כעין תדורו
that you live in the sukka as you live in your house

eg if it is very cold or raining, not to mention snowing
But there are specific halachos about when you don't have to sleep there. IE you (or rather men) have to sleep in the sukka unless these conditions apply. In EY 90% of the time people are zoche to keep this mitzva and everyone I know sleeps in the sukka unless it starts raining, ch"v. There are obviously climates where it will not be possible to do so. But someone who lives in such a climate will be obligated to sleep in the sukka, al pi halacha if it's suddenly beautiful weather or if he spends sukkos in EY for example.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 10:41 am

Mummyof6, I don't want this to become a lubavtich vs. not lubavitch debate, but I just wanted to let you know that the Rema says that sleeping in the sukkah "is not the minhag", though he is unhappy that came about and is not sure why.
Therefore, I think many people don't sleep in the sukkah since it actually is brought down as a minhag, though many have reversed this trend, and it IS the minhag in E"Y to do so as well...

mali

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 10:41 am

mummyof6 wrote:

Sorry, I don't understand.
How can someone have a minhag not to keep a Torah law?

I'll try to explain it briefly: The Mitzva is living in the Sukkah. The meaning of "living" usually refers to eating, drinking and sleeping.

In the Sukkah there is a very strong G-dly light, called "Makif". Plain people cannot see this light. However, the Rebbeim were able to see it, and could not sleep in its presence.

Tana'im in the time of the Beis Hamikdash didn't either sleep in the Sukkah, because they were in the Azara all night, celebrating Simchas Beis Ha'sho'eva. Instead, they napped on each others' shoulders in the Azara. From here we learn that the main part of the Mitzva is the eating and drinking, whereas sleeping is just to outrule living anywhere else. That is also the reason we make the Bracha of living in the Sukkah only over eating and drinking.

Halacha says that if one has Tza'ar - agony from being in the Sukkah, he doesn't have to. For example, if it's very cold, one may eat/drink/sleep at home. If a Chassid doesn't do what his Rebbe does, he feels a coldness, from being disconnected from the Rebbe.

So Chassidim don't sleep in the Sukkah, because it causes them Tza'ar. Yet, they do keep the Mitzvah of Sukkah, because the main part of the Mitzvah is the eating and the drinking in the Sukkah.

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 10:55 am

The Chassidim I know (not Lub) sleep in the sukka.

The reason no brocho is made on sleeping in the sukka is because it is not certain that the person will fall asleep and if he doesn't it will be a brocho levatala. In fact, those who are makpid, eat a kzayit of bread or cake in the sukka when they go in for the last time at night so that the bracha will also be for the sleeping.

Actually the sleeping is more strict than eating or drinking. Eating and drinking - you are allowed to eat food which is 'arai' - not a fixed meal (eg fruit and veg, drinks etc) outside the sukka (though many are makpid to eat everything there) whereas even 'shainat arai' (napping) is assur.

I would imagine that the Rambam and Rav Yosef Karo knew about this light too if your Rebbe did, so how come they didn't write in the halacha about it?

mali

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 12:00 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Actually the sleeping is more strict than eating or drinking. Eating and drinking - you are allowed to eat food which is 'arai' - not a fixed meal (eg fruit and veg, drinks etc) outside the sukka (though many are makpid to eat everything there) whereas even 'shainat arai' (napping) is assur.

1- Lubavitch is one of those places where people are Makpid not to have even a sip of water outside the Sukkah, even though it's permitted. That further proves the point that sleeping in the Sukkah isn't as important as eating and drinking.
2-The Tana'im didn't either sleep in their Sukkah. They napped outside of it. And you can't say they did something assur.

TzenaRena

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 12:31 pm

mali wrote:

My Israeli guests who arrive on Chol HaMoed for the 2nd days of YomTov haven't even had a sip of water chutz l'sukkah for over 14 hours on the plane! (taking into account traveling time to Lod and from JFK here).

Quote:

I would imagine that the Rambam and Rav Yosef Karo knew about this light too if your Rebbe did, so how come they didn't write in the halacha about it?

These are works on halacha, not the esoteric part of the Torah, which is the study of G-dliness and in which one learns of the Divine Light, the Or En Sof and emanations etc.. [It is actually very likely that they did know about these concepts.] But they DID write in the halacha about the exemptions mali writes about..

Motek

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 1:44 pm

the following posts of mine are quotes

The question “Why doesn’t Lubavitch sleep in the Sukkah” is one of the oldest questions on Lubavitch. In the beginning of 5730 the Rebbe addressed this question, and a condensed version of it was later printed in Likkutei Sichos Vol. 29. But instead of calming down the Misnagdim it had the opposite affect, now that the Rebbe gave an official explanation they no longer needed to direct their objection to Lubavitch – now they can point a finger at the Rebbe himself: “The Rebbe is changing the traditions of Chabad against Halachah”.

Before giving an accurate synopsis of the Rebbe's Sichah, let us first do away with the many misconceptions that is the basis of this question.

* * *

The Rebbe’s Disclaimer

Misnagdim who ask this question don’t know - or don’t want to know – that the Rebbe issued the following disclaimer together with the Sichah about Sukkah (Shabbos Parshas Breishis 5730) Here’s a free translation:

“I’ve heard some say that I said (in the previous Farbrengen) that one may not sleep in the Sukkah, this is not true at all. To the contrary, one who wants to sleep – should sleep gezunterheit, “v’shachavtah v’arvah shnusechah” (Mishlei 2:24) and no one should bother him. I have only come to resolve the Minhag of our Rebbes and the Chabad custom not to sleep [in a Sukkah]."

[At the end of the Sichah the Rebbe repeated:]

"But the main thing is that I’m not saying one may not sleep in the Sukkah, and if some sleeps – one should not wake him up – and especially not in my name! To the contrary, “v’shachavtah v’arvah shnusechah”. I have only come to explain Minhag Gedolim Ve’tovim – the Rebbes (including the Frierdiker Rebbe) who never slept in a Sukkah.” Ad kan leshono hakadosh."

Motek

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 1:47 pm

Did the other Chabad Rebbes sleep in the Sukkah?

All Chabad Rebbeim did not sleep in the Sukkah, starting with the Alter Rebbe himself. The Rebbe told Rav Tzvi Kahana, during ‘dollars’ on 10 Sivan 5750, “The Mittler Rebbe was a big ‘lamden’ and a son of the Alter Rebbe. He didn’t sleep in the Sukkah because this was the custom of his father the Alter Rebbe.”

Did other Rebbes instruct their Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah?

(1) In general, Lubavitcher Chassidim did not sleep in the Sukkah since the Mittler Rebbe’s times. (Though there were notable exceptions such as R. Itche der Masmid and others.)

(2) The 2nd Rebbe of Chabad instructed his Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah:

“They once told the Mittler Rebbe that yungeleit are sleeping in the Sukkah, and he “gave them a real chelek” (rebuked them harshly) and said… “to sleep in a Makif”?! Adam Mu’ad Le’olam (a person is always responsible for his actions)… when a person is awake he can control himself, but when he is asleep and there only a trace of vitality remains, he is not a ba’al Habayis over himself. This story was told by the Frierdiker Rebbe during the 1st night of Sukkos 5699 (S”H p. 295).

(3) "Chabad or otherwise": Chabad is not the only one to have this Minhag, the Rebbe told Rav Kahana "gantz Belz firt zich azoi" (this is the Minhag of the entire Belz community). The Bilguraye Rav said in the name of his father the Maharid of Belz that there were 3 things that his father "deviated from the Shluchan Aruch", one of these deviations was that he did not sleep in the Sukkah. (See Nitei Gavriel, Hilchos Rosh Hashanah Ch. 29 note 9 (5754 Edition)).

Motek

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 1:51 pm

Why didn’t Lubavitch Chassidim sleep in the Sukkah?

Was it because “it's too cold, or because it's dangerous, or because they will be without their wives"?

But the Chassidim did manage to sleep in the Sukkah until the Mittler Rebbe came along and told them not do. If it were cold or dangerous outside the Chassidim would not be sleeping in the Sukkah to begin with. In addition, the Baal Shem Tov installed a furnace in his the Sukkah so that he would be able to sleep there, so if the problem was the cold, a similar device could have been employed.

One who read the memoirs of Chabad-Chassidim in Russia will see how Chassidim risked their lives to build and eat in a Sukkah even in life-threatening circumstances, even in the labor camps of Siberia. Even today, Chassidim eat in the Sukkah even when it is pouring rain, and even on Shemini Atzeres, and even if it's only for a drink of water… Is it imaginable that such stubborn Chassidim would abandon the easy Mitzvah of sleeping in the Sukkah just because of “the cold”? The reason must be something much more profound.

In the Rebbe’s words (Sichos Kodesh, ibid):

“We can’t say that the Rabbeim didn’t sleep in the Sukkah because of physical discomfort, because they would certainly fulfill the Mitzvah b’shleimus, even if it isn’t so comfortable, and especially that there were times when it was warm, or it was possible to warm up the Sukkah, or that the Sukkah was made in the house – the roof was replaced with Sechach – and there was no temperature difference [between that room and other rooms of the house], so we need to understand why they didn’t sleep in the Sukkah”.

And we need not speculate, the Mittler Rebbe clearly stated that the principle reason is that a Chassid cannot sleep in a makif.

Motek

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 1:54 pm

Could it be that Mitteler Rebbe disregarded Halachah?!

Now here’s a tough question: If these people were already sleeping in the Sukkah they obviously were not bothered by any physical factors which would constitute Tza’ar, they were doing what was required of them according to Halachah. So why did the Mittler Rebbe rebuke them? Why did he establish such a custom for years to come? Could it be that the Mittler Rebbe disregarded Halachah?!

Obviously not. In the words of the Frierdiker Rebbe (about his father), “All his tenu’os and hanhagos were attuned and adjusted according to Nigleh, he was “A Shulchan Aruch Yid” – a person whose every move, even dibburei chol (his mundane speech) and tenu’os gufniyos (bodily movements) were based on the Shulchan Aruch”. (Sefer Hasichos 5702 p. 1) This statement is also true in respect to the Rebbes who preceded the Rebbe Rashab. (See more on this in Oholei Lubavitch Nissan-Iyar 5755 p. 74-75) There is no such thing as “disregarding Halachah” c”v.

On the other hand, until the Rebbe, nobody answered this question. Nonetheless, this didn’t bother the Gedolei Yisroel who met with the Mittler Rebbe, the Tzemach Tzedek and the Rebbes that followed. They knew that when a Tzaddik starts a new Minhag he knows what he’s doing.

Bottom line: The reason why we didn’t sleep in the Sukkah is because it is not proper to sleep in such a where there are “Makifin D’binah”, how does this work out al pi Halachah? Chassidim had no idea, but if this is what the Rebbe told them to do, that’s what they did, and they trusted that there was a source/reasoning supporting it.