Double Take | Imamother

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 2:58 am

singleagain wrote:

I disagree with the bolded. Being included in the conversation can make a huge difference. If you feel you're bring heard. Or maybe Mom didn't want to worry her daughters, so she tried to act like everything was okay. Do you know how many times my mother apologizes to me for not being able to do things the same way she did several years back? Maybe if Mom has been a bit more honest from the beginning, they would have pitched in a bit

Again, it all goes back to the open and honest communication that would have solved most of these double takes from the start.

Also, in general, it can be hard to admit that your mom can't be the same super mom your grew up with, especially if she isn't telling you about it.

You are absolutely correct. There is a huge difference between being dragged along a decision that was made - "fait accompli" and you were informed of it, or being part of the conversation. Even if the end decision is the same.
May I humbly reference Harry Potter when Prof Dumbledore explains that to Harry? ( "...It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew - and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents - that there was all the difference in the world." - HP and the Half Blood Prince ).

amother

Cognac

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 3:37 am

As a child of aging parents who are struggling to manage but also in denial about it, I related most to the son who was only acting in what he felt was his parents best interests- especially after his mother admitted she wasn't managing even after he sent help x 2.
Far off children often don't see the reality and only see what mom tells them which is glossed over. Younger and needier siblings see what they want to see -IME that is either them giving up everything to look after their parents (disaster) or living their best life at home ignoring the cries for help (also disaster).

The older and more local siblings saw their mom and understood what she needed. They should have explained this more clearly to the younger ones, esp in Israel given they were paying for tickets (I don't understand why - this seems pure generosity but maybe some strings that weren't clear but there didn't seem to be expectations from the story- it might have been that this was so they could all do Seder together and for the sake of their parents). The best outcome for the ones who didn't want to be in the brother's home was to stay at the parents home and do it themselves. I bet brother would have funded that too. I also bet that his wife, who has given up her home to host her ungrateful and hostile siblings in law, was super hurt and made really unhappy by their behavior- they seem bratty and immature- once the decision is made then they should have gotten on with it and been gracious, not sat in the den and been mean about their hosts.

I certainly don't ever have my ideal seder, we are obliged to go to family and do the seder their way, and I keep my mouth shut, work on my gratitude and over the years have come to appreciate their way as well. It is a hard journey but a necessary one - reality never matches up to idealized memories of childhood sedarim or pesach and they need to grow up a bit.

amother

Cognac

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 3:51 am

amother Stone wrote:

Technically nothing, but the family already made plans for them and would presumably not react well.

That is as much a guess as anything else. I'm guessing that the brother and his wife would be happier without having to host siblings who look down on them and gossip about them in their own home so the hosts are uncomfortable even though they just wanted to look after their parents. It is clear the motivation was to support their parents and not to upset any plans made by anyone else - they should have spoken up about the impact and done something about it.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 7:36 am

amother Purple wrote:

The brother and sister who were more in tune with the parents needs and struggles should have been more open with the sister from israel and the single sisters. They didn’t sit down and have a conversation or a phone call explaining the reasoning behind the last minute switch. I feel like that could’ve avoided many hard feelings!!

I doubt it would have helped. Tzivia's mother explained to her that it was too much twice already, and it went in one ear and out the other. Why would another explanation have helped?

The single sisters really need someone to sit them down and explain the situation to them? They're still living at home. If they can't see what is going on, they're siblings who don't live nearby giving them a talk won't do much.

The single sisters want to be treated like adults they need to act like adults. They seem a bit oblivious, self-absorbed, and immature.

Tzivia admitted that the only thing wrong was that Pesach wasn't going to be the way she had hoped. But she's being so melodramatic and petty. She's in a gilded cage? Oh, please. And she doesn't like how her nieces and nephews are dressed? Come on.

I think that the brother hosting was the right thing to do, but I think they also should have realized how it would impact Tzivia's plans with her in laws, if she was supposed to be going to them for meals. It is hard to be staying somewhere on Pesach with little kids and no kitchen. Maybe the brother could have purchased a mini fridge for them to use. Obviously, he has no obligation to pay for anything like that, but for someone who is supposed to be all about helping his family and being sensitive to their needs, he (and everyone else) did seem a little oblivious about Tzivia's plans with her in laws. There should have been an acknowledgement and someone could have tried to figure out how best to make it work.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 7:40 am

amother Cyclamen wrote:

Yeah it sounds like unfortunately the Pesach Tzivia wanted just wasn't possible, her mother just couldn't swing it. But this was something Benny should have discussed with Tzivia as far in advance as he could have- as soon as he realized it wasn't going to work for their parents to make it like they were planning to. Just springing it on Tzivia that she's now being a guest by Benny instead of by her parents, without giving her any kind of choice- I agree that it's a really bad feeling to just have things decided for you, especially when it's a choice you wouldn't have made given the chance.

And the fact that he's hosting her doesn't mean she now has to just smile and suck up everything done the way he wants to, just because it's his money and his house. He as the host should be understanding of the guests, especially when they didn't even ask or agree to be his guests, and make sure their standards will be met. What should she have done at the last second, decided to stay home in Eretz Yisroel? How could she pull off Pesach at that point? She was basically forced to come be his guest, he should understand how that's a really hard thing to do to someone, completely upend their plans like that. You could argue it was the mother at fault here to a large degree- she took way too long to realize she just wasn't up for Pesach, and also just dumped the change on Tzivia without discussing with her and letting her make her own choices given the new reality.

I don't know, I hear where the brother is coming from but I sympathize more with the sisters who were not given a choice at all about their own yomtov.

What standards were not being met for Tzivia? They should get rid of the big screen they have in the playroom (that won't be used on yt anyway?) and dress their kids in simpler clothes because Tzivia doesn't approve?

amother

Wheat

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 9:13 am

chestnut wrote:

Who holds them back from making their own plans?

This. I was an older single. It's not easy being single when you don't want to be, at any age. Being an adult living with your parents brings additional challenges. I chose to live on my own rather than stay at home with my parents. That has its own set of challenges, but those were the challenges I preferred.

Parents need to accept that it's hard being single and following along with parents. They need to accept that they may want to make their own plans. It's not clear whether this family would have been accepting, but it also sounds like the rwo sisters never thought making their own plans.

The two single sisters could have planned to go to one of their siblings for Pesach, or to another family member, or to a friend's family. Even if your plan is to be home for Pesach, that needs to be a conversation. "I really want us to be home for Pesach. Is that a possibility? How can I help make this happen?" Or "I'm so happy we're going to be home for Pesach this year. What needs to be done to prepare?" It's not easy having to make plans, but if you are single and you don't want to automatically tag along with whatever your parents are doing, that is the alternative. You can't be upset at being viewed as a tag along if your plan is to be the tag along.

singleagain

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 9:24 am

amother OP wrote:

I agree with all of the above about better communication and planning. What irked me was the general attitude towards the brother. He seemed to be a generous, caring person, and they were resentful that he was successful and wealthy. That’s not ok. And his wife was so considerate and gracious.

I had mentioned in one of my posts .. the brother seemed to be a steamroller/bully personality. Everything has to be his way... I bet you there were years of sibling dynamics that built up resentment over everything always being his way.

Maybe his intentions are generous, but when you don't stop and ask if it actually works for the other ppl in the equation, ppl will resent the outcome

amother

Wheat

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 9:34 am

singleagain wrote:

So if he had asked Tzivia and the other sisters if that worked for them, and they said no, the mother should have been forced to make Pesach ? You can't force someone to host you. This wasn't their decision to make.

amother

Stone

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 9:36 am

amother Wheat wrote:

They could have worked out a solution together. You also don't bait and switch someone into being your guest. That's their decision to make.

mha3484

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 9:37 am

amother Wheat wrote:

No but couldn't tzivia say Id rather stay home? Or tell him she planned to have meals with her in laws and let her figure out a way to manage that.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 2:46 pm

singleagain wrote:

Who made the decision to change the plans, the parents or the son/brother?

From what I read, the brother invited, the parents decided to accept. I can see the steamroller perspective in the narrative "It took a bunch more phone calls to Ma and Tatty until they agreed, but eventually Ma conceded.
“I really thought we could do it, but honestly, it’s too much,” she admitted."
But the bottom line was She conceded. It was her decision to join the son. She didnt ask her daughters if the change in plans worked for them. She insisted that She be the one to tell the sister.
If you want to blame anyone, its the mother, for allowing the son/brother take over and make the decision.

singleagain

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 2:49 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I do blame the mother. But I blame the brother also, he wasn't just changing his folks plans he was changing his sister's without the courtesy of speaking to them.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 2:56 pm

singleagain wrote:

I do blame the mother. But I blame the brother also, he wasn't just changing his folks plans he was changing his sister's without the courtesy of speaking to them.

But it wasn't about controlling the plans, or meddling. He and the other sister were legitimately concerned for their mother's well being. I don't think this is something he should have kept silent about. He should have voiced his concerns to Tzivia right away but she really seemed not to even take notice when her mother said more than once that it was too much for her.

amother

Pewter

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 4:01 pm

I think the Double Take isn't between Tzivia (and her sisters) and Benny; it's about the sisters and their mother. Benny is a third party. The mother is in charge of weighing all of the factors and making a decision. She's also in charge of the communication. She could have said no to Benny. She could have asked her daughters. That she didn't do any of that is not Benny's fault. It's his job to issue the invitation, not to speak to everyone involved.

amother

Dandelion

Thu, Apr 25 2024, 4:25 pm

amother Pewter wrote:

This was not the focus of the story but it is very obvious that the mother set up a very specific culture in her home. As a mother of preteens this gives me pause. I look around me and I see parents that are giving and gracious going out of their way to a fault hoping that their children will pick it up by osmosis and become giving gracious and considerate adults. But maybe that is faulty thinking.