The real problem | Imamother

amother

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 9:32 am

amother Clematis wrote:

There are lots if options that aren't milchigs and there are options even with sensities. Obviously, not as simple but not impossible.

But this is my point. Apparently it is hilarious to even suggest.

Generally speaking, when people give financial advice, it doesn't work to tell people to drastically cut back their expenses. It needs to be incremental.

So to tell people who are used to steak every night for supper that the should switch to rice and beans, might not be well received and could come across as hilarious.

A better suggestion might be to switch to a cheaper supper once or twice a week.

Personally I find that I do need to serve fleishigs a few nights a week as we don't get full from pareve meals. But that may be just us.

amother

Garnet

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 9:51 am

amother Clematis wrote:

I bless you with always healthy children who eat whatever you put in front of them. And would love your brilliant advice on how to cheaply feed my family without :
Eggs, grains other than corn (no rice either), fish other than salmon, beans or other legumes including soy, nuts, dairy, yeast, sweet potatoes. For an extra twist on the challenge, I have to do this all without relying on garlic for flavor.

I did the math. It’s cheaper for me to make fresh chicken or meat every night than to keep the freezer stocked with premade alternatives like frozen pizza or chicken nuggets for the kids who can’t/won’t eat the original order, or to hire help to be able to make multiple dinners each night.

I’m pretty proud of myself that I manage to feed my family dinner on about $10-$15 each night with these restrictions.

amother

Wine

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 9:56 am

The real problem is inflation.
The same items now cost a lot more than they did even 4 years ago.

Please pay attention when you vote in November. Certain choices by different presidents have impacted the cost of living and inflation.

amother

Cerise

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 10:04 am

amother Garnet wrote:

Again you’re making assumptions. We have multiple bathrooms but none are even a master bathroom, forget ensuites. And no succah porch or Pesach kitchen. We’re don’t even have central air! Even those of us who aren’t spoiled brats aren’t managing.

I don’t know where you live, but in Brooklyn many of our parents grew up in the projects, or other apt buildings with 1 bathroom and a tiny kitchen, and lived there all their life.
Nowadays even if people are living in those apartments for now, their goal is constantly to move out because it’s just not livable….
And as soon as someone wants to buy something they’ll make sure it has an en suite, pesach kitchen and place for a sukkah ( don’t get me started on this being the reason the living space in most new places are ridiculous- because they have to fit in the must haves!)

I don’t have an en suite now and people are shocked!

amother

Gold

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 10:07 am

How do people reconcile the many threads like this with advice that one will have all the money one needs with sufficient emunah.

I ask with no snark because I acknowledge I am not of a mindset that emuneh is all that is necessary and so most of my decisions have been made with a lot of consideration of the economic implications.

amother

Currant

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 10:08 am

OP I completely agree with you that for most families it’s not “luxuries” that are tipping them over the edge. The bare basic expenses of frum life are astronomically high and unaffordable for many even with decent incomes. People who think that families aren’t making it because they’re buying Doona’s are naive.

But I’m confused about what sort of magic answer you’re looking for here. There’s no point waiting around for “somebody” to “do something” to fix the problem. Everyone has to do what they can in their life to ensure they are as financially healthy as possible.

The solution to this problem, as to most financial budgeting problems, is very simple. Decrease spending and increase income.

How can we decrease spending? I believe the 3 biggest spending categories for frum families are housing, tuition, and food.

1. Housing: when buying a house, do not only consider whether you can afford your mortgage based on your current expenses. Think ahead 5-10-15 years when your kids will be older, your tuition/camp/grocery/clothing expenses will be higher, you will need to be saving for bar mitzvahs/weddings etc. And only buy as much house as you will be able to afford based on your current income and future expenses. For the record I k ow this is wayyy easier said than done with the insane housing market these days. I read here about people not making it and their mortgage is $3k or less and I laugh, because these days the only way to get a $3k or less mortgage is to buy a house for $400k-$500k MAX. And that automatically locks your out of virtually all of the large frum east/west coast communities. But still, the rule stands. Do not buy a house that you will not be able to afford once your expenses go up.

2. Tuition: Take the price of school tuition into account when deciding where to live. Lakewood has relatively low tuition, as do some Brooklyn schools. Some out of town communities have vouchers. You need to factor in tuition costs when settling down. Not only the cost, but also how willing the schools are to provide breaks.

3. Groceries: A lot of standard “frum” groceries should be reframed as luxuries. Dried mango. Dips. Individual snack bags. Meat every shabbos. Disposable everything. Get used to eating simply, you’d be surprised how quickly the small things add up.

Now, how can we increase income?

1. Plan ahead. Do not sit around in kollel until expenses are super high and you don’t have the luxury of taking the time to train/study for a well paying job. Encourage young couples to learn about lucrative careers and make serious career plans. This could mean taking night classes while still in kollel. It could mean leaving kollel after 1-2 years not 4-5 years. It could mean making sure you send your son to a high school that provides a diploma. It means removing the stigma around ehrlich “working guys”. I’m leaving the girls out of this mostly because I think most mainstream frum girls already take their career development seriously.

2. Save Save Save. When your expenses are lowest- when you are a newly married couple or a young couple with 1-3 young children, and you’re still going to your parents for yom tov and not paying high tuitions and maybe even getting monthly support- Save every dollar you can. Live as frugally as possible and work as much as you can. Soon your kids will be bigger, your schedule will be busies, your expenses will balloon. Those first few years of marriage are the best time to save up for a down payment and emergency fund. Young couples should not be on an extended 4 year honeymoon. Those years when expenses are low are often the only years a couple is able to put away any significant savings. Don’t waste them.

So, these are my basic suggestions for how to raise your income and decrease your spending. Yes, it’s simple, but it’s far from easy. But there is no magic solution. The only solution is hard work and careful planning.

And of course even with following these steps, too many families will still struggle. Because the basic expenses are astronomical. But we must do our hishtadlus, and that includes the steps above. And then we have to daven for siyata d’shmaya.

amother

Gold

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 10:19 am

amother Currant wrote:

I am not trivializing your very excellent post by focusing on "groceries" as opposed to your more "macro" level advice

However I am always surprised that people buy "normal" food at small "Jewish" grocery stores rather than a normal supermarket or even a discount place like Trade Joe or Aldi, Walmart, Target and equivalent.

Dried fruit is widely available at relatively good prices - especially considering what the cost of "fruit" is.

There is a rule of reason for snack bags - sometimes they are necessary but they can be bought less expensively on the internet but for snacks at home, it is certainly less expensive to do portion control (if that is the issue) with bags or small deli style containers which are cheap on amazon and reusable.

Meat - depending on the recipe can be less expensive than fish or dairy. There are chicken recipes that don't require 1/2 pound of chicken for each person.

amother

Currant

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 10:39 am

amother Gold wrote:

I agree, people can save a lot of money on groceries by not buying everything at kosher supermarkets. And yes dried mango is a lot cheaper at Costco than at Evergreen. And snack bags can be bought for a reasonable
Price (though actually I have found that snack bags are usually cheapest at Jewish stores). But these are still things that are not necessities and that can lower your budget if they are not bought.

Regarding meat on shabbos, I was referring to specifically beef/red meat, not chicken. It’s ok to serve chicken as the main course on Friday night. Yes, even if you have guests.

Edit- just to clarify, I’m not saying you don’t need to buy snack bags. I just meant you should buy larger bags and separate them yourself into smaller portions. The savings are huge.

amother

Gold

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 10:46 am

amother Currant wrote:

Again - not to trivialize - but I didn't realize chicken was not appropriate for Shabbos. Very Happy

I mean with no snark but my "kosher" cookbooks have a lot of chicken dishes that are specifically designated as great for Shabbos meals.

Not to focus on snack bags because your post is really about the larger issue of how small economies which don't crimp your life can add up.

Specific to snack bags, sometimes people have suggested getting a large bag and portioning it, and people have responded that this would stigmatize their children because it would be seen as weird.

It is so hard because it is a terrible fact of life that children are ostracized for the most trivial of reasons unfortunately. However, it is also true that there seems to be a hyper attention by some people (at least as expressed in posts) that the slightest deviation could mean a child will suffer terribly and possibly have no shidduch luck - a bit of tongue in cheek there.

chanatron1000

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 10:48 am

Children learn from us, whether we want them to or not. When we give off the message "I am sending you to school with this thing because it is standard and people who don't meet the standard are ostracized," we teach our children to ostracize those who don't meet whatever standard.

amother

Cognac

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 11:19 am

For us, tuition is what's killing us.
We make around $170k before taxes, and our mortgage is about $2k monthly (BH bought 10 years ago). Food has gone up almost 50% the last year or two, in conjunction with my kids becoming teenagers and eating more, so we spend about $1,200/month on groceries. But next year our tuition bill will be over $6k/month for only 4 kids!!! That's insane! We won't be able to do it, so we'll be asking for a discount for the first time ever. And I'm still pushing off braces for my 2 oldest because I just don't have an extra $10k lying around...
And while I don't believe in buying expensive items like strollers, etc., at the end of the day, a single $500 purchase is not going to make or break most middle class families. It's the big ticket items such as tuition, housing, food, and healthcare that are killing us.
And give me a break, saving $10/month by not buying individual snacks bags certainly is not going to make/break a middle class family who needs the convenience.

amother

Stoneblue

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 11:36 am

amother Clematis wrote:

It’s interesting that people complain about how expensive basics are but when ideas are posited about how to save money they are often shut down as impossible to even try.

mig100

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 12:09 pm

amother Stoneblue wrote:

It’s interesting that people complain about how expensive basics are but when ideas are posited about how to save money they are often shut down as impossible to even try.

They feel scrimping and saving a few dollars here and there makes life stressful and will hardly help..

After reading all these threads, I sort of agree.

If basic cost , TAXES, midsize mortgage, tuition, utilities, insurance add up to 150-200k a year. saving a few dollars here and there on groceries by comparing every items price in 10 stores won't help much. It may save 100 -1k a month.

It still wont help the middle class.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 12:10 pm

If I spend 400$ on a doona, people on this site scream that im spoiled brat. Its a ONE TIME expense and its amazing. Life is expensive and I promise you its not the Doona that's causing people to go into debt. It's the high cost of frum living that applies even in the communities that don't care about what people wear. Tuition and mortgages is what's killing us.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 12:19 pm

I just mention that there are modest wedding gowns, well a few anyway, on Amazon and eBay, for a hundred dollars.

Also 'mother of the bride' nice outfits, for that price.

One can make one's own veils out of lace fabric bought online. Some use a floor length mantilla dragging behind the bride. With extra layers at the top of it, for bedeken.

mig100

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 12:37 pm

amother Crimson wrote:

I agree

and I never used a doona.

mig100

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 12:50 pm

amother Garnet wrote:

I posted my very basic budget above. My kids have Graco carseats and all shirts come from target or Walmart (skirts are on sale from kidichic because non jewish stores charge even more for long skirts). Food is a fortune (yes we do fleshigs almost every night because of allergies, but that's not a choice I exactly volunteered for) and tuition is a fortune. Housing isn't cheap either

Right and many have posted similar budgets. 7k a month after taxes, can be 11-12 before taxes and insurance.

Scrimping a few dollars here and there on food comparing or second hand strollers is not the issue.

And anyone who is looking to buy a house today with 6-7% interest rate will have much higher mortgage than you even on a small house

mig100

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 1:21 pm

amother Geranium wrote:

Out of curiosity, if tuition was out of the picture, how many families would be "frum poor"?

Life would definitely be more affordable without tuition. Unless it costs other prices to get inflated since everyone will have more disposable income..

amother

Garnet

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 4:33 pm

mig100 wrote:

BH we managed to buy while rates were low, and we don’t live in town, or have a big house (3 bedroom, no en-suite bathrooms, pesach kitchens or succah porches) I would imagine our payments would be double if we had to buy today. But the fact is also apartment complexes don’t want to rent 2 bedroom apartments to families with 3+ kids , plus they cost the same 3k, or close to it.