women have rights, you know

amother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:01 am

amother wrote:

The fact is that in many places in 2015 fathers effectively choose their daughters' husbands and their sons' wives.

The fact is that in some communities romantic love is scoffed at as an oxymoron (romance is imagination based infatuation, not true love yadayada) and marriage is a business partnership of convenience.

The fact is that many women with next to no education or career, trapped with half dozen kids, are effectively married to dysfunctional or unloving husbands for protection and financial support.

And if women like me dare talk about rights of women today we are "feminists" who are "anti-torah" and "destroyers of tradition and families" and face social ostracization and rejection from our own families.

Ladies from such communities, have you achieved true romantic love despite the misogynistic attitude that prevails?

Yes indeed, I have found true romantic love amidst the prevalent mysogony....
And while I don't disagree with you on everything, true love is possible anywhere!

Amother because you are

amother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:15 am

amother wrote:

Yes indeed, I have found true romantic love amidst the prevalent mysogony....
And while I don't disagree with you on everything, true love is possible anywhere!

Amother because you are

You're probably right that it is possible everywhere, as long as both people are decent, stable, and willing to work on things. "My father and my mother said we'd learn to love each other..." that line is as true today as it ever was, for the average "arranged" couple.

However, I may be wrong, but the love that can (but doesn't always) happen needs to be based on something, whether it's mutual respect, or compatible goals, or trust, or affection, or the ability to enjoy being with each other, or appreciation of each other's contribution.

I'm hazarding the guess that you had at least one of the above, or something else along those lines, right from the start, and were able to build on that.

I don't feel that I had a fair chance. With a little more time I would've discovered the truth, both about him as well as our incompatibility and I wouldn't have ended up so trapped.

etky

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:40 am

black sheep wrote:

I agree with all of your post, but this part that I cut in particular is exactly my sentiments! the gemarrah was written and halacha was codified during a period of time when women were literally considered property, not even the level of second class citizens. if the same rabbis were alive today, I also have no doubt they would make halachos that support a much more positive view of women, and the discussions in the gemarah would look a lot different too.

So then we're talking social construction. That the oral law as we know it was molded and informed by contemporary worldview aand knowledge as much as by divine guidance. That the divine was interpreted by man within the available conceptual framework and in conformance with conventions that were prevalent when halacha was codified. That premise leaves room and grants legitimacy to fresh reinterpretation of Torah in the spirit of modern sensibilities. I think that other than the most modern fringes, orthodoxy isn't quite there yet.

black sheep

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:49 am

Yes.
Halacha is influenced by ancient worldview. And that view was not very positive towards women.
We are far away from fresh reinterpretation, yes. But we have also made great progress. Sarah Schneirer is an example of huge steps forward for orthodox women. Heterim for birth control is ironically a huge step forward, even though we have to ask male rabbis for the heter.
The modern orthodox world is way ahead of the yeshiva and chasidish work on women's issues, but I believe we can get there too.

Last edited by black sheep on Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:55 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:49 am

amother wrote:

Yes indeed, I have found true romantic love amidst the prevalent mysogony....
And while I don't disagree with you on everything, true love is possible anywhere!

Amother because you are

Does this mean your husband isn't misogynist, contrary to popular opinion and accepted doctrine? Or does he truly love you despite it? Or does your husband believe you are the exception to the truth he was taught about women?

It seems to me that the way things are set up, men have expectations of what they want from their wives, but no concept of the bond that can and should exist. And this is not only my own bitter experience, because I would've accepted being the exception if I didn't believe it was the rule.

imorethanamother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 3:36 am

amother wrote:

This is called reinforcement bias. Sometimes when we go looking for data based on expectations, we seem to find only the data that reinforces our expectations. This doesn't mean that it's truth.

It's like when you're not pregnant and you want to be, suddenly everyone around you seems pregnant.

While I definitely believe that there are some halachos that aren't the most empowering to women, that I've stated above, the Torah isn't misogynistic. The Talmud doesn't tell husbands to be so.

You really think that husbands - living in society with an almost maniacal obsession with the concept of love - don't want bonds with their wives? They don't know love can exist? That they only want some kind of slave? And that the Torah, with endless endless parables about love between a man and wife reflecting the relationship between man and God, advocates for men to treat their women terribly and not have love?

I don't know your personal circumstance and your family, but it's really far from the people around me. And your situation sounds terrible enough to embitter you and perhaps feel that the world is a terrible place. I do hope you get the help and closure you need.

We can try to make our religion more in keeping with current mores without saying that it's a doomed task.

imorethanamother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 3:40 am

black sheep wrote:

First of all, isn't it scary when our biggest source of progress is about a century old?

I wish we would also have a larger push to make birth control a choice for women, not their rabbis. I wonder why women feel so timid when it comes to making decisions about something we know the most about. Are we trying for a Get Out Of Jail Free card? Are we hoping for divine communication? Halachah is that women aren't obligated to have children. So why don't we keep that decision making where it belongs?

imorethanamother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 3:50 am

black sheep wrote:

See, I was always taught that this line of thinking is heretical. I happen to agree with you, but isn't there an inherent danger in thinking that most of Talmud regarding various topics are archaic and for "the old days"?

black sheep

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 1:13 pm

it isn't heretical, it is the way it was meant to be. the torah shebal peh was never meant to be written down and set. it was meant to be verbally passed down, and flexible, in order to keep the torah shebechtav relevant to the times. in order to keep judaism "alive." (I look at some of the talmudic discussions, the agadata especially, as a glimpse into the minds of the Amoraim, into the way of thinking in the times they lived.)

unfortunately, the way things were set, we cannot change halachos as they were codified. at least not now, in our current situation. of course the rabbi's have in their power to interpret some of the halachos differently, and some are beginning to do it, but it is a long journey.

but if you are talking about specifically the halachos and talmudic discussions pertaining to women, it certainly isn't heretical to understand that was the influence of their times! what other options do I have, to accept that I am light-headed, unable to make decisions, and should always submit to the will of my husband or be cast aside with no support as a rebellious wife? doesn't sound very enlightened to me. I don't accept that stuff about myself, or about any of the women I know. some talmudic discussions talk about the world as flat, does that mean it is heretical now if I don't believe that? obviously, they were dealing with the knowledge of their times.

now, about women taking control of birth control and taking it out of the hands of the rabbis, this is exactly (one example of) what I am talking about! this is a woman's issue, why should women have to go to male rabbis to ask for "permission" to use birth control?

when I was newly married, a chasidish friend (married a few years) told me that I am allowed to use birth control as long as my husband doesn't know, since it is his mitzvah to have kids and not mine. looking back, I know she was trying to be helpful within the context of her reality, but at the time I was very shocked. I had a heter from our rav to be on birth control, and my husband was completely on board, and I couldn't believe that some people, frum women, would do something like this behind their husband's backs. but now, I understand. if your rabbi is going to tell you no, and you are going to have 12 kids that you didn't want with a husband who doesn't understand you, you are going to find your own heter. and I realized that if I was in these womans' shoes, I would tell my daughter to use birth control and just not tell her husband.

my point in that tidbit is that the torah is to live by. if you apply halacha in a way that suffocates, it won't last. if rabbi's are telling women not to use birth control, they will find another way to use it. at the time I was shocked to hear it, but now I don't blame them and I realize that I would probably do the same thing.

so I guess chasidim are ahead of the rest of orthodox judaism in this way, because women have already taken birth control matters into their own hands!!! Smile

(another chasidish friend later told me that her husband knows she takes birth control without his knowledge, and he is happy about it. but I still think it is bad for the marriage, and obviously not all husbands would be okay with it if they find out. but it is the only solution they can find to "live by.")

I think it is the job of the leaders of communities to lead their people, not to make rules and enforce halachos that their people have to sneak around in order to live. sadly, many rabbi's are not doing this job, especially ESPECIALLY with regards to woman's issues. even some that try, with regards to gittin, are powerless to work on their own. some admit with sadness that these halachos are not in favor of women. but some don't even try, and just accept that women are inferior with regards to judaism.

it is up to the women to not accept inferior status. in my community and family, it isn't too difficult because woman's opinions are valued, so when I speak up on an issue, it is heard and accepted. but not all of my family, for example my uncle who distinguishes between a dvar torah and "veibishe torah" (woman's torah - in a derogatory way.) and certainly not so in the chasidish communities or many other frum communities, or the busses in israel where women are pushed towards the back so the holy men don't have to look at them! so those of us who feel they DO have a voice, should lend it to those women who don't have a voice, to our sisters whose voices have been so suppressed that even speaking up for yourself is considered being a rebel and a heretic. I lend my voice to all those who feel they must submit themselves to a man's will in order to be a good frum woman. I lend my voice to those women who think "feminism" is a dirty word that needs distancing from.

the torah was never meant to treat women as inferior. there are great heroins within Tanach, who didn't become a hero by covering every inch of erva but rather by leading, by risking, even sometimes by seducing and sleeping with the enemy. there is a female shofetes, there are female neviim. there is rivkah who was wiser than her husband and saw the good in yaakov and the evil in esav. there are so many examples of female leadership and wisdom in Tanach, draw your view of women in torah from there, not from talmudic discussions that took place literally during the dark ages.

and remember that we don't live in the dark ages anymore. we live in a time when women have rights. we live in a time when there is rampant misogyny, as always, but at least now there is also rampant feminisim, and you can pick which one you prefer. I certainly hope, as a woman, you have enough self respect to choose feminism. and if someone calls your an apikores (heretic) for choosing feminism, you can call him or her "stuck in the dark ages."

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 5:52 pm

gittelchana wrote:

And according to the Torah, polygamy is okay but not the most moral thing in the world to do.

Look in the second half of Perek 2 in Malachi. There's a heart-wrenching Nevuah there about polygamy and divorce.

Basically, people who went up to EY to rebuild the Bais Hamikdash married second wives who weren't Jewish. The Navi admonishes them not just for marrying non Jewish women, but also for marrying any second woman when they are already married.

The Navi says, "if you hate (you dislike your wife), divorce (her), says Hashem". People answered with a question - didn't Avraham Avinu marry Hagar when he was already married to Sara? The Navi replied - Avraham was not like you. 1) He never had it in his mind to be with Hagar until Sarah asked him to. 2) Even with Sarah, it wasn't about him and his animalistic pleasures. It was for the purpose of the Mitzvah. But you guys just want more women to sleep with....

The Navi tells the people to "cover the Mizbeach in tears" and that Hashem was there at your first wedding when your wife committed to you and you are being unfaithful to her by taking a second wife just to fill your Taava....

Look at that Nevuah and you'll see that polygamy is not considered a good thing. That it is outright bad for many/most people. This Nevuah was long before Rabainu Gershom made his ban.

I thought it was strange that I did not remember this story, but my memory is not perfect so I looked in Malachi 2. I found the pasuk (verse 16) about "if you hate (her) send (her) away" but nothing about Avraham or Hagar or the people responding to Malachi at all.

Here's a link to Malachi 2, see for yourself
http://www.chabad.org/library/.....=true

I am not in favor of polygamy, what I am in favor of is citing sources correctly. If what you say appears somewhere else, please edit your post to say where that is.

gittelchana

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 7:01 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Look at the Meforshim on the page.

imasoftov

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 3:05 pm

gittelchana wrote:

Look at the Meforshim on the page.

If it's a commentator who said that, say "look in this particular commentator" in the first place, not "look in Malachi" or "look in the Meforshim" (although you didn't even say that the first time), not every edition of Mikraot Gedolot has the same ones, and maybe it's in one of those which is always printed by itself. If you don't remember which one , make a note to yourself and look it up before posting. Or say you'll look it up later, and do.