Help me figure out what to do with my son!

amother

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 2:53 pm

My son is only 12 but he is definitely more like a teenager. He's always been very difficult but it's only gotten worse. It's gotten to the point where I can't stand him, and it's making me so sad. He constantly pushes the boundaries, is extremely chutzpadik to us and his grandparents, is horrible and mean to his siblings and is basically not a pleasure to be around. He has such awful middot that I can't believe that I have raised him. Sounds awful, I know.

We are modern charedi, he goes to a Talmud Torah in Jerusalem, but he has no interest in learning Torah, davening or being religious really. He constantly plays with his hair while looking in the mirror, wishing he had long bangs and he wants to go out with some not so religious friends to the tachana or Kenyon.

I'm not sure that this is something that charedi Boys do. But is there any point in forcing him to be like us if he has no interest? Will we not put him off even more? What should I do with him?

amother

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 3:26 pm

It's not normal behavior. Your son is very angry and taking his anger out on all of you. You have to figure out what his anger is all about. Does he have serious learning problems? Has he been abused in any way?

We went through something like that with our son. In our case, our son had been s-xually abused by older boys, emotionally/verbally tortured by a crazy teacher, and witnessed the standard smacking around that happens in cheder. Therapy and getting him out of charedi schools helped him a lot. He doesn't want anything to do with organized religion now, but he grew up to be a pleasant guy with middos tovos.

amother

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 3:33 pm

amother wrote:

I think he sounds like a 12 year old boy.

I remember my mom telling me there were a few time where she left the house, drove to our dad's work, and told him they were going out to dinner because she couldn't stand one more minute of my very chutzpadik brother. (Who now, as a grown man, is the kindest father I've ever seen.)

singleagain

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 3:43 pm

amother wrote:

But is there any point in forcing him to be like us if he has no interest? Will we not put him off even more? What should I do with him?

I can't really answer from experience, except to say that forcing anyone to do anything is a sure-fire way to push them away from wanting to do what you want to do. I can't say if that is regular boy behavior it rebellion, but if you try to force something on him he doesn't want that will almost surely end up with him rebelling more. I suggest seeking professional advise on how to proceed.

November

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 4:30 pm

amother wrote:

Oh my, where did your son have these experiences? What type of school did you switch him to? I'm so scared of these stories, and there are some things going on in my son's cheder that I don't like, but since it's considered to be more of an open type of cheder, I don't even know where I'd move him to. Why are Rebbeim still slapping kids around?? ?

FranticFrummie

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 5:30 pm

The problem with parenting a tween, is that you never know from one minute to the next if you're dealing with a 3 year old or a 30 year old! Rolling Eyes

OP, have you tried to sit down with him and tell him how much you love him, and how much it hurts you to see him so obviously unhappy? Tell him you want to help him, and ask him what is bothering him. Ask him what he thinks would make him happier, and see if you two can team up and brainstorm some ideas.

Once he sees you as a partner, instead of the authority and opposition, he might open up. Maybe not that day, but it will plant the seed. Keep presenting yourself as a person who wants to help him find a solution, and eventually he may want to work things out with you. Your DH needs to be on board with this as well.

Make sure that when he acts out, you address his behaviors, but not him as a person. "DS, I really don't like it when you do _____. This is not acceptable behavior." is much more helpful than saying "You're driving me crazy, quit being such a jerk!" (not saying that you actually say these things, just be careful about how your messages come across. He needs to know that no matter how big a jerk he's being, you still love who he is underneath all that bad behavior.)

Signed, mother of an 11yo girl who is pushing my last button these days. Hug

amother

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 7:07 pm

OP here. I don't think he was abused. He had a difficult time in his school in England (we just moved here), and he is too used to getting his own way and manipulating me. Totally my fault I know. He is extremely smart which makes it hard. So should I just let him go with friends we don't approve of and send him to a less frum school, otherwise he may rebel? I really need to find some kind of parenting mentor...

Inspire

Mon, Sep 29 2014, 11:58 pm

Your comment that he is extremely smart may be the key to what you are dealing with here. If he is intellectually gifted, being totally misunderstood could lead to extreme anger and rebellion. If this is the key, then the first step is to have him tested. If he is indeed on the high end of the intelligence scale, then find a school that will acknowledge this and work with him.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 3:03 am

Inspire wrote:

This sounds like a good place to start. He may be bored out of his mind! Find out what he's passionate about, and then find a kosher way to channel that energy.

DD is also super smart, and her teachers and I figured out early on that the only way to motivate her is to play to what she's really interested in. If she doesn't find a subject pertinent to her interests, she'll just not do the work and "check out" during class. Work with the tools your child gives you, and start "manipulating back" by using those tools to your advantage.

Tell us some of your son's interests, and maybe we can brainstorm some things he can do on his own, and things you can do as a family.

chani8

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 3:11 am

amother wrote:

So you think he just has bad middos and all that anger because you give in to him? Feeling guilty is natural, but self-defeating. Put your fears and guilt aside and talk to him. Make private time with just mommy and son, and ask him what's going on. A simple, "You seem so angry. Do you know why?" Don't lecture. Don't share your feelings. Investigate. Ask questions about his life. Don't offer to fix anything, just listen.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 3:17 am

amother wrote:

Op here. He is very intelligent but doesnt work hard in school at all. He just cant be bothered. He loves maths and cars. Can you give me an example of how to use those to manipulate back so to speak?

He hates reading? Give him books about cars. Is he good at building things? Give him a model car kit. This would be especially nice for him to do as a project with DH, letting DS do most of the work, and just chatting while they put it together.

What has he been begging for lately, that is reasonable? Could you bribe him to behave nicely with his siblings for a certain amount of time in order to earn it? Remember to comment on how nice he is being to others, and reminding him that he's going to earn his prize really fast if he can keep it up! Try not to mention it too much if he gets in arguments with his siblings, just give him "the look", and he'll understand that he's moving further away from the prize.

It's so hard not to treat them like babies when they insist on acting like one!

jackiejoel3

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 3:41 am

OP how long have you been in Israel? Moving a tween to Israel can be a huge transition and if the only friends that accept him are going to the Kenyon then of course he wants to go with them. Is he having trouble with the language or perhaps understanding the nuance of the "teen talk"? Have you thought about sending him to a school in RBS that has a large anglo population?

mummiedearest

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 9:15 am

op, lots of highly intelligent kids who "just can't be bothered" with school are incredibly misunderstood. I was one of those kids. I constantly got lectures about how I wasn't "working up to my potential," I should "just bother to study," "stop being lazy," etc. I got these lectures from teachers every year. I wasn't organized, never got help on becoming organized, and tested terribly. not one teacher who taught the subjects I didn't do well in (by which I mean I absorbed the material but couldn't produce regular homework and near-perfect test scores) suggested I get tutoring/one-on-one help. there was a phenomenal resource room program in my school, but no one thought to send me there. I suspect it would have helped. I had a lot of problems as a teen, though I didn't notice them being school-related. I had a lot of other stuff going on as well. I will tell you that it took me a ridiculous amount of time to finish my bachelor's degree, and it took a lot out of me. my college career included a lot of anxiety that I am certain is linked to my earlier school years. please, please do not consider your child lazy. get your child help. talk to him about how he feels about his grades, find out why he doesn't want to bother with certain subjects, teach him organizational/study/homework skills he may not have. talk to his teachers to find out their impressions of him. and don't allow him to do anything you consider dangerous, but do allow him some freedom.

spring13

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 10:56 am

If you just moved to Israel, I'd assume that transition is at the heart of at least some of the issues you're describing, and I'm not sure why other people aren't making a bigger deal of that. Language and culture shifts can throw anyone off their game, kal v'chomer a tween!

You need to be very observant, because it's not your native environment either. If you're not sure what's normal for his chevra, find the parents of his classmates and talk to them. Keep an eye on kids his age that you see in public. Talk to his teachers.

And talk to him. As others have said, you need to sit down and communicate that he seems unusually angry/chutzpadik/unhappy, and that you (and your DH!) will listen to his concerns and work on ways to make things better. Have certain expectations with regard to his behavior (including religious observance while he's a member of your household), but try to pick a few key issues (such as davening, being respectful to parents and grandparents) to stress during future conflicts.

There's a lot that a kid who's into cars can do besides building models. Car shows, mechanic lessons, go-karting or ATV-ing (which could be a good reward for good behavior). Get him a subscription to Car and Driver magazine so he can read about what he likes. Can DH (or another male role model) build things with him? Put him in charge of designing a new sukkah, make a shtender or bookshelf or a playhouse for his younger siblings. There's plenty of math in that kind of thing!

5*Mom

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 12:25 pm

spring13 wrote:

If you just moved to Israel, I'd assume that transition is at the heart of at least some of the issues you're describing, and I'm not sure why other people aren't making a bigger deal of that.

Because OP says he brought these issues with him. They are not new. I think it would be a mistake to attribute them to the move. They predate the move.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 30 2014, 3:39 pm

5*Mom wrote:

Because OP says he brought these issues with him. They are not new. I think it would be a mistake to attribute them to the move. They predate the move.

I don't think one issue negates the other, I think they could actually compound the situation. This needs to be looked at from all angles.

spring13, those are great suggestions. I had a hard time coming up with ideas, because I don't know the first thing about cars! That's why this board is so great, we can all brainstorm together. Very Happy