Would you borrow cash from this envelope?

amother

OP ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 5:32 pm

There’s an exercise class in my house, and people put in x amount of money for 2 months worth of classes, and from there we pay the instructor.

Is it right if I’m low in cash (say when the cleaning lady needs payment) for me to borrow from the envelope? If yes only if I replace the money that day? Before the next class? Or before the money is needed?

What’s your opinion?

realtalk

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 5:41 pm

Not ok in my opinion. You never know if there's another emergency tomorrow or the next day that will prevent you from putting the money back and it creates a very slippery slope

amother

Alyssum

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 6:11 pm

You should not take the cash. But are you making a profit? If yes then you can take it. Also you can portion out the amount of money that the cleaning lady needs in order to clean the basement. I’d consider cleaning the basement after the class as an expense

amother

Cyclamen

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 6:13 pm

amother Alyssum wrote:

You can't just portion out someof the money if it has not been agreed upon. It's not her money?

↑ care4u

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 6:23 pm

I don't get the people who are saying it's okay.

Would you take money out of the petty cash at a job where you work?

If you did you would be fired.

Or worse, arrested.

Can only take it out if every single person you put money in there, agrees.

amother

Waterlily

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 6:23 pm

I don't see a problem if I pay it back the same day ie run to the bank after paying if you couldn't go before or have your husband go on the way home from work

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 6:25 pm

Scenario that came up so far… daughter needed book money before school and dh was coming home too late…so I took from there and returned when dh walked in…

amother

Hyacinth ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:00 pm

I really think you’d have to ask a shaila, I’m pretty sure halachically it’s stealing

And in my personal opinion it’s stealing. I’m not sure why everyone is saying they’d do it or it’s okay if it goes back that day or whatever else. It’s not OPs money, it does not belong to her and is not at any point even supposed to belong to her. It is other people’s money that she is responsible for safeguarding

Would you go to someone’s house and “borrow” money from their wallet without asking? Even if you planned on paying it back 5 minutes later, it’s stealing

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:31 pm

Interesting, I’m thinking now that a few hundred dollars in there is what I actually put in. (And not everyone fully paid up- there is a certain trust going on). Is it better if I’m actually borrowing from money that I myself put in? But technically could put in later…

amother

Dill

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 8:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

Ooh that is a good question. I’m so curious what the answer is according to halacha.

amother

↑ Hyacinth ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 9:41 pm

amother OP wrote:

Maybe, interesting point. Or it could be it’s no longer considered yours if you officially set it aside as a payment for someone else, but they have not received it yet? And is maybe trickier since your payment went with other peoples as well, who only gave because you did and without your money there would not be enough to pay for it?

I have no idea. It’s an interesting shaila. I would assume it’s still not considered your money though if I had to guess

lavendar310

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 10:44 pm

Especially if some of it is yours...why would it be stealing to borrow from your future self paying the instructor? Just cuz you keep the money in the envelope that it's the instructors money yet.

amother

↑ Hyacinth ↓

Wed, Sep 18 2024, 12:46 am

lavendar310 wrote:

Especially if some of it is yours...why would it be stealing to borrow from your future self paying the instructor? Just cuz you keep the money in the envelope that it's the instructors money yet.

Because it was already set aside as payment along with everyone else’s money. It may not have reached the hands of the instructor yet but it has left her wallet

For the record if someone puts money in their tzedaka box or sets money aside with the intention to give it to tzedaka, it is forbidden to borrow from it even if it hasn’t yet been physically donated

This isn’t tzedaka but it might have the same status for having explicitly set it aside for someone else (thereby relinquishing ownership?) as well as adding to others funds who only put their money in since OPs money would make up the rest of the payment. It might have the status of no longer belonging to her, but I have no idea and this specific case would definitely require a shaila. There very likely could be halachic issues

B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, Sep 18 2024, 1:40 am

AYLOR. What if you take money from the envelope and put in a IOU slip?

Honestly this is a slippery slope. Try not to do it.

Having said that, we have 'borrowed" from my pushka but immediately donated the exact amount

amother

DarkMagenta ↓

Wed, Sep 18 2024, 6:37 am

Is this set up as a collective that happens to use your house? Or something you organized and you are in charge of negotiating payment with the instructor?

For example. Let’s say this is an ongoing class and every two months everyone pays for the next two months. If one time someone would want to not pay and not come for the next two months, what would happen? Are they committed to paying? Would the instructor get less? Would you yourself be responsible for the shortfall?

If this is run more like your business where you are responsible to pay the instructor, it might be more that you are responsible for paying the instructor at the end of the two months and that’s it. The money is yours until then.

Obviously AYLOR