Why do we say בנות מלכים?

zaq

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 7:14 pm

You are correct, technically. At some point people took the expression "Bat Melech", multiplied it by two and came up with B'not M'lachim, not understanding that only the "Bat" should be multiplied. Once that became accepted, grammatical pedants were sunk. This is not the only common expression that violates rules of modern grammar. For example, Talmidei Chachomim means "disciples of sages," not "Smart Disciples, " and the singular should be "Talmid Chachomim," or a "disciple of sages." Yet people say "Talmid Chochom", which means, technically, a "smart disciple." (The whole point is that we call people TALMIDEI chachomim, students or disciples of sages, so they shouldn't grow arrogant. If we call them a "smart student" that defeats the purpose.)

There are multiple Hebrews: Biblical, Mishnaic, medieval, later rabbinic, and modern, and they each have their own grammar.

Of course, one could claim that we're all descended from Judean kings one way or another, and are therefore indeed B'not M'lachim, but that's a painful stretch.

groisamomma

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 7:18 pm

For the same reason people say "she was nifteres" and not niftara. She is a nifteres, she was niftara.

Just one of those things that choshuv people say so us commoners copy.

↑ mzybas ↓

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 7:26 pm

groisamomma wrote:

For the same reason people say "she was nifteres" and not niftara. She is a nifteres, she was niftara.

Just one of those things that choshuv people say so us commoners copy.

I hear, but nifteres/niftara doesn't make such a difference. Multiple melochim is a little too close to kefira. Just something which has bothered me for years and I wondered if there was a good explanation.

↑ mzybas ↓

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 7:27 pm

zaq wrote:

Interesting. Thanks

goodmorning ↓

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 7:28 pm

The Mishna in Shabbos (14:4), in reference to what is considered refuah on Shabbos, notes that bnei melachim, princes, are allowed to anoint themselves with rose oil on Shabbos, but for regular people, it is considered a form of refuah.

R' Shimon argues and says . רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן אוֹמֵר, כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּנֵי מְלָכִים הֵם:
Rabbi Shimon says: All of the Jewish people are princes (and therefore it is permitted for them to anoint themselves with rose oil on Shabbos). The halacha is in accordance with R' Shimon.

If all Jewish [men] are bnei melachim, it follows that Jewish women are bnos melachim.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 7:43 pm

Miri1 wrote:

It’s a phrase in Tehilim 45 , pasuk 10, and is referring to princesses - “daughters of kings”.

But the phrase in Tehillim seems to be referring to non-Jewish princesses. (At least, that is the way it is understood in the Gemara Avoda Zara 65a.)

↑ Miri1 ↓

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 8:10 pm

goodmorning wrote:

But the phrase in Tehillim seems to be referring to non-Jewish princesses. (At least, that is the way it is understood in the Gemara Avoda Zara 65a.)

I don’t have knowledge on what the Gemara says or means about it.

But to answer OP, the phrase בנות מלכים in Tanach means princesses.

(The OU’s Nach Yomi from Rabbi E Levy describes these princesses as coming to visit the Torah scholar (described in the Tehillim) and being encouraged to leave their pagan ways.)

Later in the same Tehillim is the well known pasuk (י״ד) describing the important principle of Tznius כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. In that Pasuk though the word מלך refers to Hashem.

Last edited by Miri1 on Sat, Apr 22 2023, 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ goodmorning

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 8:29 pm

Miri1 wrote:

I don’t have knowledge on what the Gemara says or means about it.
But the phrase בנות מלכים in this pasuk means princesses.
The OU’s Nach Yomi from Rabbi E Levy describes these princesses as coming to visit the Torah scholar (described in the Tehillim) and being encouraged to leave their pagan ways.

Later in the same Tehillim is the well known pasuk (י״ד) describing the important principle of Tznius כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. In that Pasuk though the word מלך refers to Hashem.

IOW, non-Jewish princesses, who are literally the daughters of (multiple) non-Jewish kings.

I agree with you that the phrase means princesses. But this passuk does not make sense as a source for calling Jewish women bnos melachim instead of bnos Melech.

↑ Miri1

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 9:07 pm

goodmorning wrote:

There’s an organization called Bnos Melachim - is that what you’re asking? Good question.

Could be because this Tehillim is also strongly connected to Tzniyus. And Bnos melachim means princesses (ie it doesn’t by definition mean they aren’t Jewish ). The same way Jewish men are bnei melachim (as you brought in the source above) Jewish women are Bnos melachim.

eta:
I quoted the Tehillim to clarify the meaning of the term for the OP.
I don't know if the "Bnos Melachim" organization sourced their name from here, but it does seem to make sense.

Last edited by Miri1 on Sat, Apr 22 2023, 10:39 pm; edited 3 times in total

balance

Sat, Apr 22 2023, 10:06 pm

Bnos Melochim is a construct noun. There are many in Lashon Hakodesh like this. eg Shabbos Kodesh
It means princesses (daughters of kings)
It doesn't refer to Hashem at all.
It has been borrowed to refer to tzniyus - as in, a princess wouldn't behave that way which is the source for those who yarn on about how Princess (fill in the blank) would never (fill in the blank).