Conversion problem

mommyto2

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 11:46 am

I have a question on behalf of my brother -- he and my sister-in-law are finally expecting after 10 years of marriage (and the long and hard journey that came with it), and although we are thrilled by the news, my sister-in-law is not Jewish and is not planning to convert (even though she has been living a frum Jewish lifestyle for the last 15 years). They are planning on raising the baby Orthodox, giving him/her a Hebrew name, bris/simchat bat, day school, etc. but are having a lot of trouble finding a rabbi or beis din to talk to who is willing to convert the baby without converting the mother. I'm not even sure if this is allowed by halacha, but is there anyone who can refer me to someone knowledgeable in situations like this? Any info would be very helpful and I will pass it along to him. Thanks so much!

NotInNJMommy ↓

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 12:37 pm

I know of a Rav who is an expert in conversions and does gerus. I do not know if he is still working bc I know he is on the older side- He should live to at least 120. His name is R. Herbert Bomzer and he lives in Flatbush. I'm sorry I do not have a phone number.

greenfire

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 12:47 pm

If the child is to convert - he/she needs to wait for bar/bas mitzva and go from there - unless the mother has a kosher conversion before the baby is born. It's happened before and will happen again ... can be a little confusing - but there are many frum people out there who were born into situations as this. everything should be in a shaa tova!

hadasa

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 12:57 pm

I'm no Rav, and I've seen plenty of similar situations, but I think there is a problem here - the child's parents are living together totally against Halachah - so how can that be considered a Frum lifestyle? How can you expect the child to grow up Orthodox with this major contradiction in his parents' life?

MommyLuv

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 2:14 pm

I have yet to hear of a baby being converted only to be raised by a non-jewish mother. Hey, anything's possible, but I seriously doubt it can happen halachically.
Why is your SIL opposed to conversion if she leads, as you say, a frum lifestyle? Wouldnt she WANT to be a full-fledged Jew?

faigie

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 2:36 pm

does she understand that her child mighht have difficulty getting intoa decent yeshiva? etc......... im thinking, that if she had been living a frum lifestyle for 15 years, most people probably think she is a frum jewish lady. to put a tircha on her long awaited child like that, perhaps if she understood shed have a change of heart.

avigayil

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 2:42 pm

Speaking as a geirus, I find the whole thing a little weird. Why live a lifestyle if you don't want to officially join it? She needs to really evaluate her decision and if it is realistic. Raising kids as Jews and then not becoming one is a major mixed message.

amother

Wed, Feb 07 2007, 6:33 pm

NJMommy wrote:

He did my conversion many years ago. I don't see how anyone is going to convert a baby that is living with its non-Jewish mother. And if the mother has been living a frum life, why not convert?

Ruchel ↓

Thu, Feb 08 2007, 11:45 am

hadasa wrote:

I agree, it is weird and something I have always wondered about.

Now, I have heard of many cases where a non Jewish mother (married to Jewish father) is living an observant lifestyle (or supposed to) and the children are converted. The rabbis will convert the baby at birth if it is raised observant (shabbes, kashrus...), even with the problem of the parents living together against halacha. Although I wonder why kashrus has to be followed, for example, but not not living with a non Jew. Anyway... yes, it is possible. I have a cousin in this case.
Maybe it is more common in Europe?

chavamom

Thu, Feb 08 2007, 12:01 pm

I don't see how 'kashrus' can be observed in a house where teh mother is not Jewish - you would have to have someone supervising her cooking in order to eat it! There are mutliple halachos involved here, but it's highly problematic to put it mildly.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Feb 08 2007, 12:26 pm

chavamom wrote:

I never thought of that!

Anyway, I have no answer. I can only say that I have seen these conversions.

ChavieK

Thu, Feb 08 2007, 1:44 pm

I had to call a mohel for a friend where he was jewish & mom had a questionable conversion during pg. The conversion was done based on promises made, non of which had been fulfilled by the time of the bris. The mohel did the bris using the lashon he uses for an adopted baby.However the religion of the daughter is still a question. Also when you fill out school applications & they ask about the parents/grandparents this is the stuff they are looking for. Some ask straight out for conversion certificates.

mimivan

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 2:44 pm

Please, whichever Rabbi you contact, make sure he is recognized by the Rabbinate of Israel at least and even better by b'datz Yirushalaim. There have been Orthodox rabbis lately who have had their conversions pusiled (yes, you read right, Orthodox) because the Rabbinate is cracking down. Some of these rabbis, however, have not taken the "hint" and are still in "business."

Raisin ↓

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 3:05 pm

OP, Are you sure you mean your s-I-l is living a frum Jewish lifestyle. I can't quite believe that. Apart from anything else, no mikva would let a non-Jewish woman use their facilities.

Are they keeping shabbos? Kosher (incl. out of the house?)
Mikva (They can't!) tznius (ie no pants, short sleeves) Does your brother wear a kippa always? These are the basic criteria for calling oneself "frum" although there is other stuff too.

Perhaps you mean a traditional Jewish lifestyle, which is a very different thing. (basic kashrus, but perhaps not out of the home, partial shabbos observance, but maybe not even all the way, usually not mikva.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Apr 23 2007, 4:12 pm

Raisin wrote:

There are couples who do this, to be allowed to convert the children.
I do not get why they tolerate one thing (living with a non Jew) but not shabbes break or no nidda, but yeah. I also do not get why couples where one of the spouses is converting are not told to separate temporarily. Why this tolerance for one sin but not the others.
Anyway, it IS that way and what can you do....

Some beis din will convert you if you only keep shabbes, nidda and kashrus but doesn't reject the other mitsvos and say "I don't manage yet, but next year I start with the yomim tovim, and the year after with no chometz on Pessach". Or if you commit to raise the child frum (frum school) without being frum yourself. Of course I'm talking about Orthodox rabbis. I don't know why/how.