Shattered Glass serial in Mishpacha

↑ bashinda ↓

Mon, Sep 28 2009, 11:28 pm

chaylizi wrote:

marina wrote:

Quote:

I guess it just shows such a lack of responsibility. If only people would just look over their writing before posting and ask themselves valuable questions such as : Is this LH? Can I hurt people with what I'm writing? Can I possibly cause confusion in somebody's hashkafa?

If something is going to cause confusion in your hashkafa, it is your responsibility to decide whether or not you want to read that stuff.

No one is obligated to conform their internet writings to your hashkafa, just like the bookstores for the general public are not obligated to conform what they publish to your hashkafa.

if someone is writing about kefirah in their blog, I highly doubt that they care about your (or any other) hashkafa.

and that's a problem. A big problem.

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 12:28 am

someone posted this in Emotional Health as she wanted to be anonymous:

Quote:

Sorry for this, but I wanted to post my opinion anonymously, and anonymous posting is disabled in the Reading Room.
As a female who can sorta relate to Betzalel, I'm sorry to say that I don't think there are signs before you get married. It can happen to anyone unfortunately. A year + a few months ago, there were no signs, as the problem didn't exist at all for me yet. And I'm married a lot longer than that.
Not that I'm going off the derech, I hope, but I can relate to a lot of what is going on in his head. All I can say is that Riva must've spoken to someone who went through it, as there's no other way she could have described everything so accurately, it's scary.
I don't think she's going to bring in [filth]. Besides for the fact that it wouldn't be acceptable, it's totally unnecessary to the story line, and there's no connection between this issue and [filth], IMHO.
While I understand the concept of not shoving issues under the carpet, I'm not really sure what the benefit is of publishing such a story. But I guess it depends on where the story goes. What will it help to make people more aware? For someone in a situation similar to mine, it just validates and makes things worse. Personally I wish she had never written such a story. I run to read it right away, but not because I enjoy it. Because I can relate to it so much, it's very important to me that Betzalel resolves his issues in a way that I find satisfactory. I guess I won't find that out for many weeks. And every time I read the latest installment, I'm affected by it for a few days.

I really don't want to start a new thread about this, so maybe someone can copy and paste this under their login name into the original thread?

↑ FraydaSue ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 2:29 am

I don't understand why so many people are making such a fuss - unless it's hitting too close to home. It seems obvious that B has been reading blogs and ideas that come from a "foreign" culture/hashkafa.

It's great that Mishpacha has brought this into the open. Every home, with or without internet, could fall prey to these ideas.

Add to this, the fact that sadly our sons/husbands are not being taught hashkafa in yeshivas, and we could, chaz v'shalom, be heading for big trouble

↑ marina ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 2:52 am

Quote:

if someone is writing about kefirah in their blog, I highly doubt that they care about your (or any other) hashkafa.

Spoken out of ignorance. People who write about kefirah in their blogs usually care too much about your hashkafa.

Now how about people who write about kefir in their blogs? They probably care too much about yogurt.

sarahd ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 8:56 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

if someone is writing about kefirah in their blog, I highly doubt that they care about your (or any other) hashkafa.

Spoken out of ignorance. People who write about kefirah in their blogs usually care too much about your hashkafa.

Only inasmuch as it provides them with grist for their apikorsidik mills. Only to the extent that they feel they can mock it without being called to order for it. Only as long as they think they'll have an audience for their heresy - and that maybe the audience will have you as a member...and maybe you'll imbibe their poison and be influenced by it.

↑ marina ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 9:21 am

Quote:

Really? So you think that there are no completely private kefira blogs with no audience whatsoever or an audience of two-three people? You think there are no kefira blogs where frum comments are taken seriously and not made fun of, if they are insightful and throught-provoking? You really think that people with these blogs are out to convert the frum masses instead of resolving their own issues?

I would beg to differ. And if you care to do so, you can pm me for specific examples of all of the above, although the completely private ones will be difficult to show. But something tells me you have made up your mind, that you have a preconceived opinion and will accept only facts that bolster that perspective.

Ruchel ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 9:32 am

fmt4 wrote:

I disagree with everyone's view on Betzalel. Sounds like to me that he's a very smart, deep person who grew up in a world that was not sophisticated and intellectual enough for him. I mean his wife sounds like she doesn't think about anything deeper than decorating cakes. He obviously can't have an intelligent conversation with her. And in the society he lives in its obvious that people don't question things about Torah- which is a completely normal thing to do, so because he never felt it was accepted for him to voice his questions, he got pushed to the edge to do things he shouldn't. It's so sad.

Many frum, charedi people are very smart, deep and educated/sophisticated/intellectual WITHOUT questioning the Torah (unless you mean asking questions and searching for answers is questioning - and even then many don't feel the need).

↑ bashinda ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 10:59 am

I think if you had classes in hashkafa and the classes were taught in a non threatening way where you could feel comfortable voicing your questions than perhaps kefira blogs won't have much impact on you. Or at least you'll know when you've found an internet site that you should stay away from and you stay away from it but unfortunately it sounds like some people don't have this background even if they've been frum all their life or they've had teachers who think asking questions is apikorsism. (I'm really hoping these teachers are in the minority but I often read about these sorts of teachers in the hamodia)

I just know that I've had hashkafa classes, B"H. My teacher, Rebbetzin Sara Kaplan, shetichye, brought up a lot of different issues and I'm rextremely thankful. At the time I didn't really need it but since leaving sem I'm able to bring up these different lessons when I need to and it helps a lot. Still, I've found myself over the years discovering certain blogs and an bulletin board which shall go nameless where I really felt somewhat confused after even browsing for a few minutes. It usually started with something as innocent as a google search too. I didn't start reading knowing what these blogs were about. I only say this because I can see very easily why someone could really got shaken up by this.

I'll say it again. People have a responsibility. I personally would feel horrible if something I had said or written had caused someone to go off the derech hayshar, ch"v, and the sad thing is there's probably no way these writers will know that they did damage so they won't even realize they need to do teshuva and how would they even be able to find the person they hurt to beg forgiveness?

↑ chaylizi ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 11:09 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

if someone is writing about kefirah in their blog, I highly doubt that they care about your (or any other) hashkafa.

Spoken out of ignorance. People who write about kefirah in their blogs usually care too much about your hashkafa.

I understand that people who write these blogs would like frum people to see their point of view. But that was kind of my point. Why would someone who writes a blog like that care about your personal hashkafic needs & cater to them? It's their private blog. They happen to be letting you read it, but they aren't going to write someone else's point of view to "kasher" it up for nosey frummies (who don't have to read it & probably should stay away from it like poison).

Possibly you still think I'm ignorant. I'm guessing that would be a good thing.

↑ marina

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 11:34 am

Quote:

Why would someone who writes a blog like that care about your personal hashkafic needs & cater to them? It's their private blog. They happen to be letting you read it, but they aren't going to write someone else's point of view to "kasher" it up for nosey frummies (who don't have to read it & probably should stay away from it like poison).

No, I misunderstood your point. Thank you for clarifying. I apologize for my comment and I pretty much agree with what you've written above.

Quote:

People have a responsibility. I personally would feel horrible if something I had said or written had caused someone to go off the derech hayshar, ch"v, and the sad thing is there's probably no way these writers will know that they did damage so they won't even realize they need to do teshuva and how would they even be able to find the person they hurt to beg forgiveness?

Responsibility goes both ways. I know a girl who is tremendously put off yiddishkeit because of the frequency with which she hears racial slurs in the frum community. This girl is young and has gone to BY schools and is having considerable issues with religion already, in part because of some of these things.
Who is going to apologize to her? The people around her do not know what is in her head, that's for sure.

There are also a number of posters who left imamother because they were turned off from Judaism in general because of the negative comments made on this forum about other Jews, other drachim or even nonJews, and they realized that being here was bad for their frumkeit. Funny how no one ever calls out those posts on "responsibility" issues.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 12:16 pm

Ruchel wrote:

fmt4 wrote:

I'm sure that's true, but I'm talking about in terms of the characters in the story. The people surrounding him, especially his wife, seem very shallow and unsophisticated. So living in a society with these kinds of people, which in the real world there are many of as well, can push someone with deeper questions to go off the deep end.

↑ rb ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 4:02 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

fmt4 wrote:

I agree. It seems "Huvi" can't handle anything deeper then baking, or decorating, and gets hysterical if she needs to have a serious conversation. Is there a reason that the author is making her so ditzy?

↑ chaylizi ↓

Tue, Sep 29 2009, 7:02 pm

I don't think of Huvi as ditzy. She happens to be a good mother/housekeeper & also very creative. why are we calling her ditzy because she is a good kollel wife & doesn't question the path in which she was raised. I think you are doing her a disservice in order to prove your point about Betzalel. Besides which, I don't know a single person who wouldn't get hysterical if there husband told them he didn't care about being frum. I think anyone who is dedicated in their frumkeit would care. Being intellectual is not a good excuse to do things he shouldn't. Nor is being intellectual & being proud of it going to console him for the loss of his family, if he doesn't get his act together. Sorry ladies above me, I disagree vehemently. You have a problem with your faith, go talk to someone about it. Don't let it spiral out of control until your life starts falling apart.

↑ rb ↓

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 11:52 am

chaylizi wrote:

Obviously Betzalel is an extreme case, but a good wife should be able to have a calm meaningful conversation with her husband to find out exactly what his issues are, before she starts storming out of houses and blabbing to her family and friends before she hears her husbands side of the story.
Also, she was already hysterical when she found him in the coffee shop instead of seder before she knew about his emunah issues, and while that is definitely not proper, it does not deserve such a reaction.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 11:57 am

fmt4 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

fmt4 wrote:

While I haven't read the story, one can hope that in real life the man would have married a girl "like him"... or at least not his contrary.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 12:02 pm

Well I'm probably Huvi's contrary as I am an university student, into "deep" stuff and cannot cook ( Wink

) but I would be devastated and certainly not calm if dh (C'v!!!!!!) told me he didn't care to be frum (unless I married him that way knowingly).
As for being at the coffee shop instead of the seder, emuna issues or not, he wouldn't hear the end of it unless he could give me a GOOD reason. And not feeling like it isn't a good reason. You choose a frum life (by marrying a frum person and not making it known you wanted something else), deal with it, don't destroy everything.

↑ rb ↓

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 4:22 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Well I'm probably Huvi's contrary as I am an university student, into "deep" stuff and cannot cook ( Wink

Men are not machines. Believe it or not, even kollel guys can burn out once in a while. Going to a coffee shop once in a while isn't the end of the world. Of course, if its every day then its a different story, he obviously doesn't belong in kollel.