Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:14 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Question: If one doesn't want to be a combat soldier, then what? You think you can instill motivation in someone who isn't interested? Think again.

They can do a different role. There are many many roles in the army. And there is all kinds of talk about bringing back national service for chareidi men, which would open up lots of options to contribute outside of the IDF

amother

Winterberry

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:18 am

someone wrote:

But that's my entire point. Even though mashiach isn't here yet we aren't in galut the way we were 200 hundred years ago in Poland. Hashem has given us the ability, the duty and the privilege of being able to fight for our people and our Land, for the first time in 2000 years. We are seeing before our eyes the revival of the ancient model of a Jew with a sword (or gun) in one hand and a sefer in the other

Puleeeese. The ancient model were all tzadikim. Those who weren’t weren’t allowed to join the army. Todays army is full of mechalilei shabbos and gilui arayos, whether they are tinok shnishbas or not. They have as much shaychus to the “ancient Jew with a sword and a Sefer” as a pumpkin.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:19 am

someone wrote:

Chareidim already do it now.

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:21 am

amother Winterberry wrote:

Hm. Like Shimshon? Have a look through sefer shoftim or melachim and tell me about all the great tzadikim who were fighting our wars.

amother

Carnation

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:22 am

someone wrote:

No no no! We are in just as much galus as we were in Poland. It’s a privilege to be allowed to live in EY during galus and we are beyond lucky, but don’t kid yourself that this is a level of geulah. When the shchina and beis hamikdash returns, when we have clarity and nevuah and all the nations recognize Hashem, THAT will be the geulah. Galus is not about location. It’s a time of darkness and confusion, and that’s where we are right now

Eta- this is a milchama to protect our lives. NOT a milchemes mitzva which has certain requirements, which this war doesn’t meet (first of which is that we’re in galus)

leah233

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:23 am

someone wrote:

Hopefully you realize that not everyone sees things the way you do. There is no reason to resent those who don't want to take advantage of what you refer to be as being a privilege. And don't expect meek compliance if you try to force them to.

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:28 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Chareidim already do it now.

Let's say they're already doing national service now. Whatever they're doing isn't solving the army's manpower crisis. If it's more of certain types of positions, or more man-hours, maybe it would help alleviate the strain on the army. Or maybe national service doesn't cut it right now.

Reality

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:30 am

amother Carnation wrote:

Nothing of what you wrote is mainstream chareidi thought.

There are two dimensions of galus, space and time. Those in chul are in both and those in Israel are in one.

What do you think a milchemes mitzvah means?

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:37 am

amother Winterberry wrote:

How dare you? I'm reading what you wrote with tears in my eyes. I'm thinking about the hundreds of bnei Torah who sacrificed their lives in this war, and the hundreds of irreligious soldiers who while unfortunately don't yet keep Torah and mitzvot are full of love for Am Yisrael and are prepared to be moser nefesh kipshuto to protect the Jewish people. Watch interviews with them, read things they wrote. They are the direct continuation of the ancient Jew with the sword and the sefer, even if they didn't have the zechut to read the sefer. It comes from their soul, from the deepest part of their pintele yid that can never be tainted. There's a good reason why Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach famously told people who wanted to go daven at kivrei tzadikim to go to Har Herzl and daven at the graves of fallen soldiers.
Yes there are many many things in the army that need to be changed and corrected. Yes, the discussion about the army is legitimate and complex and important. But be careful how you speak about these kedoshim.

amother

Caramel

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:39 am

someone wrote:

I heard once that Dror Weinberg Hy"d, who was a frum pretty high ranking officer once came to visit the yeshiva that he had learned in and said to the rosh yeshiva that the guys must not be learning chazak enough. The rosh yeshiva asked why he thinks that and he said that all kinds of things had been going wrong for them on the front lines that there wasn't any explanation for, so it must be that they had to add Torah learning, because that is the source of all their successes.
That isn't the machloket here. A lot of people agree that Torah learning protects us and without it we would have no ability to survive even one minute here. That's a given. The question is how to combine that with the need for our hishtadlut in olam hazeh, in a war for our very survival. No one is saying that we should empty out the batei midrash chas veshalom.

My husbands very chareidi friend told him that his idea would be to have a group of avreichim or bachurim attached to every unit in the army (ideally in a 1:1 ratio like 20 soldiers in army/ 20 bachurim in group) and every time the unit would enter a mission the avreichim would be notified and they would get up to learn.
Ex. the soldiers go on a mission from 2am-4am then the avreichim will be learning from 2am-4am etc.

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:40 am

leah233 wrote:

Yes, I know not everyone sees it the way I do. And of course I know that this is the subject of big machlokot between gedolei olam. But I'm sure you understand the complexity of an entire group of the population benefitting from the mesirut nefesh of another group but refusing to contribute to the effort. I'm not saying there's a simple solution. I'm saying that the beginning of any solution has to be understanding the genuine difficulty from both sides, and understanding how the other side feels.

amother

Winterberry

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:41 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

Hm. Like Shimshon? Have a look through sefer shoftim or melachim and tell me about all the great tzadikim who were fighting our wars.

Yes Shimshon. Only those who blithely look at Tanach as a storybook and don’t bother reading history through the lens of Chazal see Shimshon and the other leaders of Klal Yisrael as bloodthirsty adventurers rather than the tzadikkim they were.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:58 am

The truth is that the real two state solution should be two Israeli states - charedi and secular - those in between like dati can choose. Those two groups have about as much in common as Israelis and Palestinians do - actually charedi probably have more in common with Palestinians because they are both religious. Unfortunately, achdus is a myth and a naive dream. Those two groups have totally different visions for the country.

amother

Wandflower

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:58 am

amother Winterberry wrote:

And more and more sinas chinam.
Really, why?

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:58 am

amother Winterberry wrote:

Ok. I chose shimshon because I thought it was pretty obvious he was a complicated character. There are others. Plenty of the kings where it says pretty explicitly in the text that they did "evil in the eyes of Hashem". Eventually this evil did lead to galut but there were many hundreds of years of ups and downs before that. I never learned that all our soldiers and warriors were tzadikim. Can you show me a source?

By the way I don't appreciate the way you put down my approach to tanach. In any case, if you can show me a source that before the chorban all our warriors were tzadikim I'd be appreciative.

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:00 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

This makes me very sad. Two visions, maybe. But only one am yisrael. Only one Hashem.

giftedmom

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:01 pm

Guess we’re about to see many pics and videos of violent demonstrations and police brutality. These people never learn. The amount of manpower they will need to enforce this will outweigh the manpower gained by far, and they won’t end up with any quality soldiers anyway. This isn’t the 1800s Russia.

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:01 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

Do you live in Israel?

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:03 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

Do you live in Israel? Your post is one of the saddest thing I have ever read a religious woman write.
You think the charedi population is closer to the palestinians because they are religious? What dystopia do you belong to?
And dati leumi people are not "in the middle".
There is so much more to a person, to an isrseli, to a jew, than if they believe in army service or not. Yes, its a big contenscious thing, but its not the only thing.
And no, achdut is not a myth. There has been so much achdut these last 8 months.
Your view on what you think all reality is, is just so sad. And disturbing coming from a frum lady.