She didn't *really* pass, but...

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 9:11 am

Notsobusy wrote:

Why can't we have different "fair" for different students? Why is one girl's "fair" at all related to another girl's "fair"? Hashem created us all differently, with different levels of intelligence and different personality traits, why can't each girl's "fair" be based on her abilities?

I realize that's harder to do on the high school level, where you're teaching a lot of girls and don't get to know them as well. But you should at least base what's fair to her on what you do know about her, if you know she really tries hard, but she's really not intelligent or not good at taking tests, then her mark should reflect that.

Like I said, sometimes it's possible to do that. For example, if she has a tutor who has been in touch with me and can tell me that the girl studied at home on her own for a number of hours, then came to her for an hour, and she really seemed to know it, so if she doesn't do well, it's probably her anxiety about test-taking... Then I know. But very often I don't know. I don't know if she has a tutor, and if she does did she work with her before this test, and if she doesn't, why not? After I've spoken to the mother at PTA about it... So I try to do my homework and find out.

But back to your question here: We have a universal marking system. When you see someone's transcripts, a 70 means something different than a 90. I can't give out grades based on random emotions. Until that doesn't change, I can't be the one to make the change.

But we're really way off topic now.

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 9:22 am

Notsobusy wrote:

I'm just curious, why are make-up tests a bigger hassle to mark precisely?

I know my dd's school discourages make-up tests and charges for them, and I don't understand it. In the school I went to, if you were out sick, you just took the test the next day during that teacher's class. It was never a big deal.

When I'm marking another 100 papers of the same test, one more makes almost no difference. Once I'm done marking and I get a make-up, I need to pull out the answer sheet from my file, mark it without being familiar with the answers so that takes way more time, calculate her average, fill it into my roll book (wherever it may be found at that point in time), and then make a special call to my principal to fill in the missing mark. All this is done during a regular teaching week when I have other school obligations like making up lessons, marking quizzes, etc. (Unlike midterms where I usually get time to mark on the days of other midterms.) The principal, on her end, needs to find the right pile of papers for the class and fill in the mark on the rating sheet. Then she needs to find the pile of report cards for that class, pick out the girl's report card, and fill it in. If report cards we're given out already, then the principal doesn't have the rating sheets handy, and that's more work.

I don't know how large the school you went to was, but in our school, there is NO way that would work. For one, I don't know how you can take a test while the rest of the class around you is learning. Second, information is a build-up so she might hear answers being in class. We also don't want the girls to miss out on the current lesson (which might be the cause of another make-up...) Taking the test out of class requires a proctor. When you have many girls in a school taking a make-up that requires many proctors. So a specific day is set for make-up tests with a paid proctor.

Does that make things clearer for you?

↑ Notsobusy

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 9:46 am

amother wrote:

I get why it's more difficult to mark when the school has a make-up day weeks after the test, and I get why that costs them money for the proctor etc.

We wouldn't take the make-up test in our classroom, they would give you an empty room or you would sit in the hallway right outside the classroom. No proctor required if it's just one girl taking a test by herself, my school wasn't very into proctors at all.

It was easier for the student to take the test then, instead of studying again weeks later. And it was easier for the teacher to be able to mark the test with all the other tests.

It wasn't a huge school, about 200-250 students. But my dd's high school is about the same size, so I don't understand why it would be harder for them.

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 9:54 am

Notsobusy wrote:

A girl taking a test herself in the hallway would never fly. For one, there's no place (no desk, chair). Second, a girl needs supervision. Some tests take 2 hours, and there's a lot going on in the hallways during any 2 hours of a regular school day.

Besides, during midterms, the next day is another midterm, so if the girl wasn't ready for the previous day, she's not going to be ready for 2 midterms (sometimes 3) the next day. That's why an official make-up day AFTER midterms was instituted.

amother

Babyblue ↓

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 10:31 am

Blonde, as a teacher I completely get what your saying, literally word for word. I think a lot of people don’t understand some of the nuances and have their own horn to toot over here.
First off all, you should be commended for being a caring and committed teacher. You sound sincere and smart.
I get your struggle and have the same one quite often. I try to figure it out student by student and like you said it’s really hard. The amount of time report card takes and the emotional energy is something no one here would probably believe.(when they mention teacher vacation time or pay, parents should know right before that vacation teachers spent 25 extra hours in the few weeks before on report cards).
I usually just give the couple of extra points because as a mother of many daughters as well, my motherly voice kicks in and I just have Rachmanus. I wonder(as some posters did as well) if this is always the right thing to do, as some girls don’t put in the effort for that grade, are used to getting away with things and reality hits them when they get to university. I’ve had cases where we were “compassionate” inflated their grades- like so many moms are advising us to do, and the girls complained to the whole world afterwards. They blamed the school for a poor education and for the fact that they weren’t prepared for university. The school inflated their grades, to make them feel better. That’s another point to keep in mind.
With that I do try to keep effort in mind and give the few extra points. I see you do the same.

LittleDucky

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 10:42 am

About automatically raising the grade to a nicer number...What about the kid who works really hard and gets the 70? So her grade is now the lowest one can get. How will she feel? It’s not so simple to artificially raise grades.
I have tutored girls who work incredibly hard to get that 70. If they knew that became the “new 65” it would discourage them from studying for hours... and girls do share grades.

Plus- factoring in effort can be tricky. I knew another girl who didn’t try at all. She didn’t even open the book. (I knew this to Say it is a sibling or in seminary where we were together 24 hours). But teachers would give her bonuses for effort. She put out a good show...

I am not saying to not help the grade or put in nice comments. I am just bringing out other ideas to keep in mind.
How did it get to this situation? If a girl was scoring 50-60s the whole semester why wasn’t a meeting called? With the girl or her parents? See if there is a learning disability or difference?

amother

↑ Floralwhite ↓

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

These are good questions for a spinoff. I'll just answer the bolded: No, that can't be done. Many girls take advantage of such a guarantee. I can't pass her if she got a 36, for example...

If you see that she studied in advance (she asks you questions /knows the information better in class etc) why can't you guarantee her a pass? She can't take advantage- you know she studied!! I'm not saying to make this a policy but on a random seldom basis - I had a high school teacher who had a reputation as being difficult. Studied HOURS for her midterm. Blanked out at the test due to nerves. She took out her roll book and showed me how she put 100 near my name (I was crying if that makes a difference). My mark didn't matter to her. Because she knew I had been studying for weeks. Is this something you can do regularly? No! Cause you can't always know. But here you know she worked hard. And gave it her all.
Not always is the correct answer proof of work. I think giving this student a 70/75 is completely fair. Add a 100 for effort into that average!

↑ ellacoe

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 11:37 am

amother wrote:

Thanks everyone!

I would like to hear more responses, but so far majority agree with me, and only ellacoe agrees with my principal...

I think as a parent I would prefer to see a P. (and I know my kids would rather me see a P than a 65) I personally thought there is more dignity to it. Its just my personal opinion. If the girls are all sitting around discussing their grades and the girl can say I got a P it sounds better than saying 65 when many of the other girls got 80s and 90s. I don't think that the other kids are going to read into why she didn't get a number as much as we are.

Also what I understood to be important here was that she passed and that her work and effort were recognized, I personally (and one again this is just me and I understand if people see it differently) think that a P is more reflective of that sentiment than a 65.

farm

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 12:02 pm

I also think a P is more fair when you have other students with 'real' averages of 65 that didn't get a couple of effort or compassion points added.
It's not in OP's hands to revamp the education system. Whether or not grades based on objective exams are the correct way to evaluate a student, this is what's in place here and now. So taking into account the other students who also may or may not have spent much sweat and tears preparing for quizzes, exams, etc, if she is getting free points without everyone else also getting an extra 2 points on their averages, how is that fair. give the P.
But I think you should strongly consider meeting one on one with the student, warning/explaining that she earned a P on your class because based on your criteria, you know she passed. And the actual number is unimportant. Then tell her how proud you are of her tenacity, perseverance and study habits, and that you predict with these vital skills, she has a very promising future ahead of her and you expect to hear of wonderful accomplishments from her after graduation. Do this so that she is prepared for the report card and hears your encouragement in her head when she opens it, instead of surprise and disappointment.

Shoshana37

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 12:23 pm

I personally think you should give her 70 if you care about her future at all. It’s not the grade that’s important it’s what you do to her self esteem for future. Please give her 70 and tell her she got this grade only because you saw how hard she worked.
A lot of us been there and sometimes our life circumstances effected our grades. So if you truly want to show rachmunus then give 70.
No I wouldn’t like to see P on my child report card.

amother

↑ Babyblue

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 12:38 pm

For all the parents talking about self esteem, I’m a parent and a teacher. Some girls shine in different ways. My child who is very academic and gets straight A’s got the smallest part in her school play and some years gets none at all, and is stuck in some song dance in the back row. Should she get the main part so she shouldn’t feel crummy? Maybe let’s give the whole school the main part while we’re at it?
Kids shine in different and that’s life. Build up their resilience.
Your child might be that huge part in the play, while academics come hard for her. She might make the machanayim or basketball team, while my academic child who wishes she can be playing has to just sit on the side and cheer. It has to go both ways.

DVOM

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 1:22 pm

In my husband's grad program a passing grade is 73.5. If you get a 72, you fail out of the program and have to wait a full year to retake the class with the next incoming class. At the graduate level, these people worked HARD. Talk about effort. My husband studies pretty much non stop, and so do his classmates. In the first semester, about ten percent of the class failed out. There were no make up tests,or extra credit, or points for effort. I'm not saying our schools should function this way, but this is what many college bound kids can expect after leaving the safety of our schools. What can we do to prepare them for this while still applauding their effort and building their confidence?

Interestingly, my perception of my husband's university was that their grading policy was mean, cruel. My husband, who is Israeli, saw it differently. In his culture of origin, there was no such thing as teachers inflating grades because they were compassionate or noticed your effort. Your grade was your grade. If you couldn't hack it, you failed, and that was it. So the school's very strict policy made a lot of sense to him and he didn't waste time getting angry at the system (unlike me. I was furious!)

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 2:02 pm

amother wrote:

It's not so simple. Usually girls who are weaker are already less motivated by the time they come to my class.

amother

↑ Floralwhite ↓

Fri, Jan 26 2018, 2:10 pm

amother wrote:

It's not so simple. Usually girls who are weaker are already less motivated by the time they come to my class.

Which is why this needs to be done on an individual basis. You said in OP that you know she worked hard. And was motivated.

If the student wasn't motivated and didn't put her full effort towards doing well I obviously wouldn't recommend this. But 10+ years post high school and I still appreciate her reaction (and can honestly say that had she failed me it would still hurt)