WO! Now I really believe in R' Nachman - Uman- Rosh Hashana!

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 9:25 am

Quote:

Having said that, we believe that all is by Divine Providence. Sometimes this is more apparent than at other times. I am sure that for the person who went to Uman to daven at the kever of a tzadik, who saw their request fulfilled (they conceived) within months of being there, it is very exciting.

I'll drink to that!!!!! Drunken Smile

Mevater

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 10:10 am

TammyTammy wrote:

To further add to my point, since it was one year after the davening at Uman, the due date couldn't possibly be in the first nine months anyway, greatly further restricting the number of days that a due date could occur on.

Tammy

I respectively beg to differ. The due date could have been nine months from the day of prayer to the last day of fertility of the woman involved or never! Many women never conceive.

hadasa ↓

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 1:33 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

It seems you're taking it for granted that she would get pregnant within three months of being in Uman! Otherwise you have years ahead of possible due dates...So who's the real believer here.....? Tongue Out

↑ hadasa ↓

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 4:19 pm

catonmylap wrote:

Its not up to you to be the judge of how others spend their money

As long as they are using their own money and not collecting it from the rest of clal yisrael.

If somebody is CH"V in need of medical treatment out of the country, would you consider it appropriate for him to collect money for that purpose? Some people consider spiritual remedies no less important than medical ones.

Last edited by hadasa on Sun, Aug 19 2007, 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 10:42 pm

hadasa wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

True. But no matter when she got pregnant, it is still no more than 1/360 or so odds of having a RH due date (the exact number depending on the type of year).

Tammy

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 11:04 pm

Gevalt! A due date Of Rosh Hashana of the next year and a Rosh Hashana due date 2,3, 4, 5, or more years down the line have a world of difference!

Suppose you take antibiotics for an infection and the infection clears up within a short time it's one thing, if it clears up 5 years later , you don't credit the antibiotics you have taken 2,3,4 or 5 years before.
Wink

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 11:06 pm

amother wrote:

Sheesh!

Even if you maintain that it only has special meaning if the due date is the *next* RH, the odds still aren't as astronomical as the OP would like to believe.

Tammy

Blossom

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 11:09 pm

Quote:

I thought for some reason that praying at graves was accepted practice by all jews. You are not praying to the dead. You pray to Hashem and the soul of the departed that you are visiting with tries to get your tefilos to the "frontline" faster than you alone. Doesnt all types go to kever rochel? So if someone is Breslov why cant they go to uman? Tzaddkim dont pratice magic, but they can use their zechutim to posiibly help you get your tefilos.

Amother, Exactly what I was thinking.

sarale

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:08 am

BTW, I for one travelled from one end of the globe to the other to daven at the Ohel to ask the Rebbe to help my Tefillos get to Hashem faster etc to get pregnant.
I had only a small chance naturally as I was only able to go to Mikvah on the last night before the end of my trip and then I would miss three days as I would be flying , and I davened, I got to go to the Mikvah where the Rebbe's holy chair is, and by Divine Providence I was driven in the Rebbe's car to the Ohel together with my husband, and B"H I got pregnant that month.
I definitely believe in my Rebbe's ability to give Brochos. But one must be a Keli, a vessel. Believing in the power of a brocho is also a way to be a Keli. As is accepting upon oneself to do a certain Mitzvah etc...There are millions of stories similar to mine. One must only believe...

BTW The Rashi in Devarim on Vedavakta ...how to cling to Hashem, Rashi says by clinging to a Tzadik. Even a five year old could understand the simple Pshat!
I wish all the best to catonmylap; if she would ever want /need a Tzadik to intervene for a special Brocho, all of the sudden the attitude would change...
Many people from all walks of life go to a kever of a Tzadik to pray.You are not praying to the Kever, but to Hashem, hoping the Tzaddik will intercede.
What does it say in Kitzer Shulchan Aruch, Siman Kuf Chaf Alef?Erev R"H we are taught to go daven at the holy kevarim for a good and sweet new year. Kalev ben Yefuna davened to Rochel Imeinu when the Meraglim were being negative...it saysit in Rashi.Peshuto Shel Mikra...

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 12:53 am

You can never prove logically 100% that a miracle occured. In our world, we have Bechirah Chofshis. There will always be those who ascribe miraculous births, the Gulf war, or Krias Yam Suf to "coincidence".

That is what I learned is the aspect of Amalek. "Asher Karcha Baderech" "Karcha" meaning both "Mikreh"-coincidence and "Lekarer"-to cool off one's enthusiasm and Emunah.

Now, don't get all defensive, I'm not CH"V saying that anyone personally is Amalek, just that the tendency to be skeptical of miracles, to demand 100% logical statistical proof, and to cool off someone's Emunah, comes from the aspect of Amalek in the Yetzer Hara, which we all have.

↑ shalhevet

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 2:03 am

Blossom wrote:

Quote:

Amother, Exactly what I was thinking.

I don't remember anyone here (certainly not me) saying that it isn't a Jewish practice to daven at kivrei tzaddikim and that tefillos are answered in the zechus of the tzaddik.

Tammy, it's not even relevant what her due date is (especially since it's medicalese with no halachic significance - I'd be interested in what date she actually gives birth). Don't you think it says something that after many years of infertility she got pregnant within three months of davenning at that kever?

I only said that I can't understand why people leave EY to go to kvarim in Chutz La'aretz. Someone in EY who needs a yeshua has plenty of kivrei tzaddikim to choose from. (And of course tana'im and amora'im are on a higher level, not even to mention avos and imahos than 'later' tzaddikim.)

↑ TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 11:11 am

hadasa wrote:

But you're assuming that this is truly a miracle. However, it's not*. Pregnancy is something that happens every day in the world and the odds of expecting on RH are not all that long. And even if she had difficulty in conceiving, that *still* doesn't quite make it a miracle -- there obviously was a possibility, it was just a bit smaller than it was for the rest of us. Don't tell me that I'm denying a miracle -- it's hardly a miracle in the first place. Now, if she had a hysterectomy and *then* got pregnant -- now THAT'S a miracle.

Tammy

* Yes, every pregnancy and childbirth is a miracle. However, in this case, I'm using "miracle" to mean an extraordinary thing that goes against the laws of nature and doesn't happen every day.

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 1:39 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

As you so accurately pointed out, even a natural occurence is a miracle. So then when do we call something a miracle? A miracle is an occurence where the hand of Hashem is more obviously visible. It does not necessarily have to totally defy the laws of nature. Truthfully, I don't think it would make a difference if it did. I'm quite sure that if a woman were to conceive after a hysterectomy, the doctors would find some medical explanation for that, too.

For the OP, a pregnancy after years of infertility, which closely follows prayer at the grave of a Tzaddik, and in addition, the "coincidence" of the due date being that particular day (although, following your own reckoning, the odds were 99.43% against it - 2 out of 350 being 0.57%) is clearly Yad Hashem, Who does miracles through His messengers, the Tzaddikim, be they physically alive or not.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Aug 20 2007, 5:28 pm

sarale wrote:

BTW, I for one travelled from one end of the globe to the other to daven at the Ohel to ask the Rebbe to help my Tefillos get to Hashem faster etc to get pregnant.
I wish all the best to catonmylap; if she would ever want /need a Tzadik to intervene for a special Brocho, all of the sudden the attitude would change...

My mother received a Bracha from the L. Rebbe (this was in the 1960's and she met with him personally for about 1/2 hour) both as a single woman, and once she was engaged. Yep, she got divorced.
I got dollars twice from the Rebbe. They were stolen.

Quote:

I certainly did need a special bracha. But it doesn't just work like snapping your fingers. I did a lot of davening in a lot of different places till I got to one that worked. In the end I don't credit the place as much as I credit the tefillot themselves-and the physical shaliach. And I 100% see yad Hashem in the birth of my son (it's as cool a story as the OP's story, and better than the Ohel story IMHO).

As someone who has been through IF, I hate hearing one derech or one segulah being touted as the "cure-all."

As has been mentioned on other threads, we don't know what else this couple was doing. Did they do the Mitzva of shiluach hakan? Did she wear a ruby? Did they have their mezuzas checked? Did they visit a new doctor? Try a new medication? Bottom line is, Hashem decided it's time for them, and that's wonderful. Doesn't convince me it's worth the expense and other sacrifices it takes to get to Uman.

Anon out of respect to my mother.

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 5:12 pm

amother wrote:

sarale wrote:

You are not praying to the Kever, but to Hashem, hoping the Tzaddik will intercede.

This sounds VERY much like what the Catholics explain they are doing with their saints. Praying to God, hoping the saint will intercede.

So? Maybe we should stop praying altogether since Catholics pray. Rolling Eyes

Here's a wonderful article about going to Uman:

http://www.aish.com/spirituali.....n.asp

two quotes from the article:

Quote:

Despite the over-crowding, nowhere else in the entire Jewish world did I see such respect and good manners among such diverse Jews!

Quote:

If the Chassidim were not all so pleasant, warm and polite, it would have been unbearable.

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 5:34 pm

Quote:

right um aha, and you know what,
by your rational we shouldn't believe in G-d either ya know?

Hashem also gave your mother a brocha I assume to get married and she got divorced.
Hashem gives people life and takes it as well.

If you don't believe in brochos from Rebbe's because your mother got divorced then you might as well not believe in anything

as far as your dollars getting stolen, whats that got do do with anything?