Would you get your daughter's hair done proffessionally for

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↑ Mrs. XYZ

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:20 pm

Quote:

So if your sheitel covers every strand of hair - but cost 2000$ and looks like a million $ - it maybe considered a halachic head covering - but it definitely would not be considered tsniusdic. Your suit may cover your legs to your ankles, your arms to your wrists and your neck to your chin - but if it cost more than I spend on food for a week - I can't believe anyone would consider this tsniusdic.

What does spending money have to do with tznius? Its a gashmius issue, which def. is a problem, but you cant say that expensive outfits are not tznius.

Inspired ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:25 pm

No way.

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:34 pm

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

What does spending money have to do with tznius? Its a gashmius issue, which def. is a problem, but you cant say that expensive outfits are not tznius.

Give me a break - have you ever heard of a modest mansion or a modest three karat diamond ring? It reminds me of the joke about the poor little boy with the poor mother, the poor father, the poor sister, the poor nanny, the poor house keeper, the poor gardener, the poor cook, the poor pool boy etc.
Figure out the analogy on your own.
It's not the money spent it's the "look at me" sign the money has bought.
Gashmiyut would be spending hours on end reading through fashion magazines without spending a dime. Immodesty is flaunting your stuff for whomever to see.

Chocoholic ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:36 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

I'm not even talking about the money, I'm talking about chinuch. Speaking of what is important in life. I don't think external appearances are the most important things in life, I'd rather spend the time and money elsewhere. I think the focus on the simcha should be the simcha - not what people are wearing. Besides the point, I don't see the real difference between little girls with tons of mousse/jell in their hair and makeup and adult-styled dresses and the little girls dressed as tramps with suggestive outfits that belong in a men's magazine. Both sides of the coin turn little girls into little women and in a way zexual objects.
Talking about tznius!!!!
So your body and hair are covered but, is that all modesty means? I'm sure your dear little daughters are covered from neck to toe - but what message are you sending them? This is not a message of tsnius, this is not a message of modesty. Who care if no men even get to see them. Tsnius is not about what men can see or not. Tsnius is about what every individual displays to the outside world. It is about what you keep to yourself, it is about priorities, it is about deciding that the most important thing about a girl or woman is her midot, her yirat shamyim, her personality, this is what counts.
We cover up to keep the focus off our bodies, not to draw more attention to them.
Tsnius is not to flaunt what you have.

I know I live a totally different life than most of you women. But it drives me crazy that people from circles such as these put such emphasis on superficial "tsnius" that they have forgotten what it really means. All they have left is a whole bunch of superficial rules that mean nothing in the end. I am sure that someone like me would be deemed prizusdik if you were to see me on the street. But you forget the passuk הצנע לכת עם ה' אלוקיך this passuk means that one should be tsanua in everything one does. So if your sheitel covers every strand of hair - but cost 2000$ and looks like a million $ - it maybe considered a halachic head covering - but it definitely would not be considered tsniusdic. Your suit may cover your legs to your ankles, your arms to your wrists and your neck to your chin - but if it cost more than I spend on food for a week - I can't believe anyone would consider this tsniusdic.

This is not targeted at anyone personally. I understand it is hard living up to your society's standards. You can't make your kids a victim of your beliefs. I have had several discussions with my SIL who is Chareidi and like chossidmom hates having to do these stuff because of what society demands.
My problem is with these groups of society, who have the audacity to look down at people like me claiming I am either not tsniusdic enough or yirat shamyim enough because I don't wear the correct outfit (I.e. - mikva attendant thread). You claim to be the right paths of Judaism and avodat hashem yet you have so many inherent flaws. I'm just asking that you should have enough anava - humility to accept those of us who have another derech in Avodat Hashem that is not like yours. You might think we have inherent flaws - I guess you should assume so, otherwise you'd join us - but you should respect us as well. We also try our best to worship Hashem and observe all the mitzvot.

I invite anyone of you to my community in Gush ezyon. Most families live in caravans - probably the size of many of your living room. Children and adults both are simply dressed. Nobody really cares what the others are doing. But everyone has mesirut nefesh for torah, for am yisrael, and eretz yisrael.
Really I think this can be a real experience for anyone out there who wants to experience something new.
Please PM me if interested I would love to have you and I can accommodate any hechser demands withing reason.

I get your point but I think you are missing the point entirely.
Look it's great you are in your caravan, all dressed up in worn out gemach clothes, now is that befit to a bas melech???

Tznius is about covering your body - it is NOT about being unattractive (I think you messed us up with muslims).

↑ SuperMama ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:40 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

What does spending money have to do with tznius? Its a gashmius issue, which def. is a problem, but you cant say that expensive outfits are not tznius.

Ok you knwo what. I normally would not post here, but I can't keep my mouth shut.

A 3 karat ring can cost less than a 1 karat perfect diamond. Much less depending on color, this and that. So please, size isn't always a give away. I know a girl who has a GORGEOUS watch from her grandmother. The watch was 40,000 dollars some 20 years ago and now is probably worth 60,000. Her grandmother left it to her when she was nifter. Now looking at that watch you would not think it cost most than 50 dollars, honest. It's so classy, not gaudy at all. She wears it because it was her grandmothers and I know how much it cost because when I was looking at it upclose I could see the name inside in very small letters. Up until that point I ALWAYS thought it was a watch that was under 100 dollars.

There is a difference between CLASS and GAUDY. The people that are into showing off so they buy a 3 karat ring that could be as yellow as anything but its big usually are the ones that have "new" money or are only into what others think.. and you know what? Let them enjoy, as long as they are happy. I fargin them. People who buy classy, beautiful, small, precise diamonds, jewelry, clothing, etc can spend a lot for something VERY VERY classy and unless told the brand, people wouldn't know how much it cost.

And btw there is a life expectancy difference between a suit that cost 50 dollars and one that cost 700. Some people buy epensive because they want it to be durable, but also they can afford it and they like a classy elegant non gaudy look. PLENTY of people dress like that. Plenty of suits cost a lot but look classy and you wouldnt know how much it costs, so while you might have a personal issue with spending and don't want to fargin ANYONE who does, it doesn't mean expensive things cannot be tznius.

↑ Chocoholic ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:43 pm

We are not supposed to look awful in worn out gemach clothes, on the contrary we are princesses and should look that way. Tznius doesn't mean you have to look unattractive or downright ugly.

↑ Inspired ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:47 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

We are not supposed to look awful in worn out gemach clothes, on the contrary we are princesses and should look that way. Tznius doesn't mean you have to look unattractive or downright ugly.

Where do you live that you think clothes from a gemach are worn out?

If one can only afford clothing from a gemach thy are somehow less of a bas melech?

yo'ma

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:47 pm

SuperMama wrote:

The watch was 40,000 dollars some 20 years ago and now is probably worth 60,000.

Do you really mean $40,000, not $4,000? I would never wear a watch that cost $4,000 because I'd be too nervous, but $40,000 Question

↑ SuperMama ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:48 pm

Inspired wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:

We are not supposed to look awful in worn out gemach clothes, on the contrary we are princesses and should look that way. Tznius doesn't mean you have to look unattractive or downright ugly.

Where do you live that you think clothes from a gemach are worn out?

If one can only afford clothing from a gemach thy are somehow less of a bas melech?

I agree with you inspired. Cloths from a gemach can be beautiful and do not make anyone less than a bas melech.

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:50 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

Actually I was going to discuss the bat melech thing. Honestly I started typing but then I decided I may have gone on too far.
I don't dress in rags, I pride myself in having a good taste in clothing and I try to look good like a bat melech should. It's just a question of where you draw the line and how important your looks are. I agree we should all look put together. But what I'm saying is that modesty is not how much you cover but how you behave and covering is just part of behaving in a modest manner and living a modest life.
The point is not the way I lead my life verses yours. I don't live in a caravan out of an ideal, believe you me, I'd much prefer living in a house (especially on winter nights such as these brrrrr) and the minute we can legally build we will B"H. Also, B"H I have the means to buy my children's clothes new, but I won' turn down hand me downs.
The ideal is not to relinquish all of olam haze for lofty ideas. The ideal is to live a tora life using whatever Hashem's world has to offer. The question is where you put your emphasis. The question is what you show your children you really care about. Children learn from seeing what the adults do, not from what the adults preach.
The main issue is your proportions, what proportion of your income, time, energy, imagination, thoughts, goes to flaunting what you have or wish you had or just struggling to keep up with the Hershkovitses. What your priorities are.

↑ SuperMama

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:52 pm

yo'ma wrote:

SuperMama wrote:

The watch was 40,000 dollars some 20 years ago and now is probably worth 60,000.

Do you really mean $40,000, not $4,000? I would never wear a watch that cost $4,000 because I'd be too nervous, but $40,000 Question

Yeah, audemar piquet, it's the best watch made. For them, 40,000 is even cheap. But like I said, they have EXTREMELY classy things. And the one this girl has is only a small gold face I mean its not half as fancy as any of their new things, but its the time piece that costs and the fact that it will work forever and is so classy. For her grandmother it wasn't too much to spend (it was a present from her husband) and she didnt go around advertising the price and no one would know. I love that. Thats a great way to live. To be able to get whatever you want and still be classy and mature about it. Not show off or buy super gaudy sparkling things like some do to show off or because they like it(I have friends that do it too and like I said, as long as they are happy, but I wouldn't want to live that way)

Last edited by SuperMama on Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Chocoholic

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:52 pm

Clothes from certain gemach can be in good shape. If someone ch"vs is in need then of course that's the option. But, I happen to have been in the gush area and been in their gemachs and most stuff is entirely worn out, washed too often and generally in bad condition. And very 80/90ish.

I have nothing against gemachs, but to have whole villages depending on them (an ideal?) is way overboard for me.

↑ Raisin ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:53 pm

I don't think there is anything wrong with making a little or big girl look pretty. but I don't think some of these hairdressers are acheiving it. Look, your paying $30 or $40, they want you to feel you get your moneys worth. So even if your dd will look better with a simple style, they still spend time doing a hairsprayey (you know I thought people didn't use hairspary anymore, guess I was wrong) curly updo. because otherwise you would say: I spent $40 on that? I could've done it myself.

for my bils wedding I had a hirdresser do my kids hair. they looked ok, but it was overdone. for my brothers me and my sister went to a store, spent about $10 in total on little flowers, accesssories and hair elastics and grips, and they all looked gorgeous kah.

BrachaC

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:54 pm

I just have to add here- I know everyone has started to discuss the chinuch/tznius/gashmius issue; however, if those are not the question at hand- I would say if your daughter has difficult hair and you are not talented in that way then by all means compensate with $10.00. My daughter has long, curly hair. It only looks good in a pony tail when I do it. for my sister's wedding we had a friend who has her own salon do her hair and she looked absolutely beautiful. I never could have gotten anywhere close to that nice. As mother's we all have to learn what our strenths are and then compensate for the weaknesses. Nebach- my poor kids have look messy all the time, but for a wedding I would go ahead and spend the money.

↑ chanchy123

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 2:01 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

Okay, I guess I wasn't clear B"H my kids do not wear clothes from gmachs. Honestly, I don't know if any of my neighbors kids do - and I couldn't care less. I assume most buy their clothes or get them from their siblings children (usually both) because that's what I've heard people mention.
I'm just soooooo happy that if I ever did reach a situation where I had to get my kids clothes from a gmach I wouldn't be ashamed to do so. I wouldn't be embarrassed to have them go to school like that. Because no would ever notice. Yes, I've had compliments on nice outfits I was wearing or one of the kids was wearing but never in a million years would anyone even think anything was wrong if my kid wore some 90s or cvs 80s outfit. It wouldn't occur to anyone to notice, I guess that's a mida of ayin tova. Did I say that I love my community and the caravan, no store, no mikva yet (pray for rain), no normal transportation is all worth it, for such an accepting, supportive, and fun group of people.

↑ drumjj

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 2:13 pm

I would also for a wedding but not a vort which I think was the ops original question

↑ orchidmom

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 2:17 pm

I just joined this forum this week... and it's interesting to see the atmosphere here..

I think personally this whole topic got a bit out of hand the OP only asked a simple question and it has digressed into another whole topic!

tsnius and spending money etc... are such loaded issues and because everyone on here is from such different backgrounds I think what is accepted or not in one community is not the same for everyone!

↑ Inspired

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 2:26 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

And very 80/90ish.

Woah. Modern styl =bas melech too?

↑ freidasima

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 2:35 pm

Amen to that. Everyone comes from different communities with different standards and if you can afford it, why not.
Why not? Because the money can go for better things?
Yes but doesn't it say that if you are rich eat off gold plates otherwise you will think that if you are rich and you eat off wooden planks then the poor can eat off the floor?
But that's ridiculous, can't there be a middle way?
No because Jews are extremists always, they are always going radical in everything.
Why are you maligning Jews? You see how fast you get to loshon horo?
Why are you always waving the loshon horo flag? Next thing you will say that it is a chillul Hashem!
But it is, and as usual this thread has dragged you down to your worst Freidasima.
Simafreida you are always arguing, enough already. Go back to your little Shtark MO world with your little Shtark MO kids and your little Shtark MO budget and just stop giving so much advice as no one is listening..

Moderators, time to lock the thread!!!

(just kidding everyone, it's my usual schizophrenic self here, arguing with me...)

If you didn't get it...don't worry, I'm too tired to explain

Barbara ↓

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 2:38 pm

Tamiri wrote:

CM all you have to do is click on them to see them normally. Is her name Batya? They are beautiful children knock on wood LOL.

For the record, and given the turn this thread has taken, I want to say that they're gorgeous kids. I don't think the hair is at all over the top, either.

For heaven's sake. Kids looking like kids doesn't mean that their hair should be rats' nests and their clothes frumpy and patched.

Some people are good with hair, and can make their daughters look beautiful on their own. Me, the instruction *hold the drier in one hand and a brush in the other* is way too complicated. Setting me loose with a curling iron on a kids' hair is considered child abuse in 47 states and virtually every foreign country. I still have nightmares about those curlers my mom used to make me wear, and that was TRANSMISSION ERROR years ago. I guess its a good thing I don't have a girl, but there is NO QUESTION that I would have a girl's hair done for a simcha. Besides, why fuss when there's so much else to do?

For the record, my hair was *done* for my Bat Mitzvah. It was long and straight with a center part. More recently, my niece's hair was*done* for hers. Same 'do.

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