Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

amother

Black

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:17 pm

Success10 wrote:

You only see the tragedies that occurred. You have no idea of the untold horrors that were prevented in the zechus of Torah learning, and in the zechus of the heroic actions of the IDF.

I want to second this. We are chareidi and my cousin's SIL was sent to Gaza - he's a combat engineer, one of the guys blowing up tunnels. DS16 undertook to learn in his zechus until he was released from duty. On Chol Hamoed Pesach we met up in a park and the SIL thanked DS for his learning which, he said, saved his life on numerous occasions. (I get teary-eyed thinking of it.) I think that if you ask most soldiers serving in Gaza if they think the Torah learning being done on their behalf is protecting them, they will say yes.

iyar

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:22 pm

someone wrote:

I know first hand that behind the scenes there are genuine efforts being made to try and create frameworks in the army that are suitable for chareidim. There are frum high-ranking officers working on it with people in the chareidi world. I think most people understand that if the army genuinely wants chareidim to join the army they have to provide them with a suitable framework to do so.

Most people do recognize that and I hope you’re right. The problem is that it’s not the people who decide, it’s the politicians. They have their own motives to manipulate things to their personal advantage and then things don’t happen the way we hoped. We’re in this mess of trying to pass a reasonable conscription law for years. Maybe you’re right. Maybe now is the time and things will happen.

amother

Watermelon

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:30 pm

amother Mayflower wrote:

Many sources say that Torah doesn’t protect against death. Legitimate Gemara sources. Just saying we choose which sources we want to go with.

Many sources say you don't know what you are talking about.

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:31 pm

iyar wrote:

I don’t know if I’d necessarily choose Bar Kochva as a character we want to introduce into this discussion. I know he’s one of the people in our rich history that secular Israelis like to remember, but he’s not a shining example of what we want our sons to be. Chas veshalom any of them turn out that way.

Nachon, point taken. Although obviously he was more complex than we think, because Rabbi Akiva believed he was mashiach. But still, I understand what you're saying. So lets take the example of David Hamelech, Yehoshua Bin Nun, countless other great leaders who were both gedolei Torah and warriors.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:32 pm

Those who don't want to learn in yeshiva should enlist.
Those who claim "we don't have enough soldiers" are only partly right. We don't have enough of staff for certain positions but we have too many for other jobs.3000 chareidim travelled to lishkat hagious. How many were actually drafted? Around 500. So pleased explain what happened to the 2500 that IDF had no need for? Answer: IDF had no use for them.
Look at the yeshiva boys. Are they muscular and do serious sports every day? You think you'll turn them to Rambo?
Those who are unmotivated to do army service, you think you'll turn them into 1st class warriors?

amother

Wandflower

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:34 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

This is a terrible day for the state of Israel and the Jewish people.
They are really lighting themselves and the state on fire. I am scared for the danger that they have brought on all of us living here now.
A terrible day.
They are removing zechisim that are keeping us safe.
To me these people are really reshaim mamash.

And this is one reason why mashiach is not coming.
You live in a country, take from the country, if army is mandatory, the ones who decided this are reshaim? Thats pretty harsh for a fellow jews.

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:35 pm

amother Black wrote:

I heard once that Dror Weinberg Hy"d, who was a frum pretty high ranking officer once came to visit the yeshiva that he had learned in and said to the rosh yeshiva that the guys must not be learning chazak enough. The rosh yeshiva asked why he thinks that and he said that all kinds of things had been going wrong for them on the front lines that there wasn't any explanation for, so it must be that they had to add Torah learning, because that is the source of all their successes.
That isn't the machloket here. A lot of people agree that Torah learning protects us and without it we would have no ability to survive even one minute here. That's a given. The question is how to combine that with the need for our hishtadlut in olam hazeh, in a war for our very survival. No one is saying that we should empty out the batei midrash chas veshalom.

paperflowers

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:41 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I believe most of them were shlav bet - people past draft age who are now trying to enlist. None of shlav bet are enlisting for combat and only do two weeks of basic training right now unless they are further needed for some very specific purpose. So from my relative who was part of that program, it seems that they don't need many more military rabbis. But the story would be very different for younger yeshiva bochurim who can join combat units. They might not be the serious muscular guys striving for the top units, but not all combat positions require that. They can get into shape if necessary even if they don't play serious sports as a hobby.
You can't generalize from the 30 year olds getting turned away that the army doesn't need 20 year olds.

Jewishmom8

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:45 pm

amother Wandflower wrote:

And this is one reason why mashiach is not coming.
You live in a country, take from the country, if army is mandatory, the ones who decided this are reshaim? Thats pretty harsh for a fellow jews.

I stand by what I said- with my user name btw.
I live in this country and give to this country.
I say that with full confidence.
It is comical and ironic to me that you think moshiach wouldnt come because I called this group of horrible, evile, Jews Reshaim. They are the worst.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:48 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Do you think all chayalim start out strong and able bodied? No. And not all chayalim are kravi. There are so many different positions. Not everyone needs to be rambo.

amother

Wandflower

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:49 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

If you think they are the worst, why do you stay here?
I live here too. And I stand by what I say.
And im not talking about you giving to the country.
Im talking about learning men giving to the country.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:50 pm

someone wrote:

That wasn't in a time of Galus, how are you comparing the two?
Sure, back in that there were many, many great tzaddikim who were fighting wars.

amother

Lawngreen

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:50 pm

someone wrote:

Sure, no problem. Just out of interest though, who will protect you while you are doing your safe privilege?

Since I’m not in haven yet I dont have the ansewr for that.

Same as I dont have the ansewr to many of my questions I had through my life.

Whoever it will be hope they will do a better job than the IDF does.

Jewishmom8

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:51 pm

amother Wandflower wrote:

I am specifically talking about the supreme Court who casts these votes to do this damage to the country.

Reality

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:55 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Do you actually see the chayalim? Almost none of them look like Rambo. Most of them look just like who they are, skinny 20 year old boys doing a man's job.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 2:01 pm

paperflowers wrote:

Question: If one doesn't want to be a combat soldier, then what? You think you can instill motivation in someone who isn't interested? Think again.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 2:08 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Do you think all chayalim start out strong and able bodied? No. And not all chayalim are kravi. There are so many different positions. Not everyone needs to be rambo.

If there's motivation, fine. What will you do with those who aren't motivated? Send them to military jail? Then what?

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 2:13 pm

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

That wasn't in a time of Galus, how are you comparing the two?
Sure, back in that there were many, many great tzaddikim who were fighting wars.

But that's my entire point. Even though mashiach isn't here yet we aren't in galut the way we were 200 hundred years ago in Poland. Hashem has given us the ability, the duty and the privilege of being able to fight for our people and our Land, for the first time in 2000 years. We are seeing before our eyes the revival of the ancient model of a Jew with a sword (or gun) in one hand and a sefer in the other