Speak no Evil | Imamother

↑ momsrus ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:00 pm

taketwo wrote:

Everyone reacts different to trauma. Most go on to lead normal, healthy lives. I BH have a family, a job, and am a contributing member of my community. The same applies to many others. For some victims it's harder to do, but they still do it. It takes years of therapy and effort to deal with the long lasting ptsd. That doesn't mean they should be stigmatized more than someone who has diabetes and has to adjust their diet to live a healthy life.

And yes, there are victims who are not able to lead normal lives. There are victims that the trauma effected them more so, and they do have a difficult time leading a normal life, due to their abuse. Should they be further victimized by a stigma? Fox's post makes it sound like all victims need to hide, because there is a shame in being a victim of abuse. There is no shame on being a victim, only shame in being an abuser.

No you misunderstood her post.

Sensationalizing stories such as this one harms the victims more than it helps them.

Sure let’s bring awareness, speak to your kids on an ongoing basis. But stop gossiping in the name of awareness.

Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:07 pm

momsrus wrote:

Maybe in other situations. But I don't see how this story can be made any more sensational than it is intrinsically. This story is not about US making it sensational, it's about the facts themselves. They are simply horrific and it's hard not to talk about it.

I don't think this is about gossip - this is something that affects all of us personally and we're processing. And trying to figure out how to go forward in a world that seems to have gone mad.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:08 pm

Fox wrote:

I have reached the conclusion that 99 percent of the women on Imamother and elsewhere who complain about rampant abuse in the frum world or tolerance of such abuse are amoral liars just cloaking their own awful middos.

Why do I speak so stridently? Because in nearly 15 years on Imamother, I'm sickened by seeing so many posters advocate one-size-fits-all solutions to problems that are individual in their nature AND show over and over that they care nothing about the victims.

For example, many posters want to widely publicize every scandal, defending such action by claiming that it "raises awareness." But what of the victims? What happens when people in their daled amos deduce that they were abused and assume that they are permanently disabled in some way by the abuse? What happens when all the well-meaning busibodies go around telling victims, either individually or as a group, that their lives are "ruined"? How does that help anyone heal?

It is absurd to think that we can't protect people from predators without making it into salacious gossip -- gossip that often hurts the victims far more than the predator.

I have written endlessly about the need for infrastructure within each community that addresses sensitive cases of abuse. I've seen how effective such an infrastructure is at finding approaches that take predators out of circulation while doing everything possible to ensure that victims aren't victimized twice -- once by the predator and once by the gossip. I've also seen how cases of false accusations are handled to avoid as much harm as possible to those accused and to the mentally ill accusers.

So, no, OP --.there is absolutely no excuse for turning every tragic story into an opportunity for people to virtue signal about how opposed they are to bad behavior. They are secondary predators and should be regarded in that manner.

I agree with the general sentiment. But there are cases and situations where the predator is so well known, and causes such a widespread damage, that when he is exposed, it becomes a national tragedy that affects all frum people everywhere. Not unlike the recent national tragedies of Meron and Surfside, or the brutal terror attacks against Jews where the entire Jewish community was affected, so too, this particular story has had worldwide reverberations. To prove my point, look at how many threads have been opened about this. And when there was a two day moratorium, women wrote that they were suffering from not being able to process this.

I listened to several clips on Torah anytime, and several of the speakers referred to the "tragic events of this past week.", without even having to spell out what events they were referring to. This shows that this has become a national event. We are all victims.

When it is a national tragedy like this, it's not about salacious gossip. It is about taking a moral stand and speaking up, and calling out evil. That was the intention of Rabbi YY, Rabbi Breitowitz, Rabbi Eisenman, Rabbi Dunner and countless other Rabbis who felt so pained in their hearts that they could not stand by and ignore the issue.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:10 pm

taketwo wrote:

Fox's post makes it sound like all victims need to hide, because there is a shame in being a victim of abuse. There is no shame on being a victim, only shame in being an abuser.

You honestly believe that all victims want their personal misfortune to become neighborhood chitchat? And you feel comfortable in outing victims in order to make your point?

There is a difference between shame and privacy. And you don't get to decide what level of privacy another victim prefers. If someone wants to talk publicly about his/her experiences, that's a personal decision. Secondary predators who want to make that choice for victims have zero right to do so and usually cause additional harm.

Since when is it okay for a Jew (or anyone) to refer to someone's life as being "ruined"? However many challenges a person has and however much pain he/she has endured, we believe that every life is uniquely valuable.

People may at times FEEL like their lives are ruined, but our role is not to say, "Yup! Might as well throw in the towel! You're never gonna have a good life." Our role is to facilitate whatever will assist an individual heal and say, "I believe that your life is valuable, that YOU are.valuable."

Going on infinitum about "ruined lives" is the ultimate betrayal of victims.

↑ Mermaidinexile ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:11 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Agreed. And self-righteously repeating the word "gossip" where is so does not apply, again shames victims. This was a community HORROR. When discussed openly and publicly makes abusers understand that THEY will be discussed openly and publicly.

In the words of chaim walder himself "anything can be kept hidden".

Let's work to change that.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:12 pm

b.chadash wrote:

To prove Fox's point, look at how many of these threads were locked. Ask yourself, why they're being locked.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:14 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

It is about processing, but we're using the secular method to do that - gossip.

The discussions are all about looking back, there isn't much talk about going forward.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:18 pm

Fox wrote:

Great Job twisting my words. Of course it is the victims choice whether they want privacy or whether they feel comfortable speaking up.

By talking about anonymous victims, who we have no details other than age and gender we are not making them into chitchat.

We are talking about the fact that there are victims and there was was an abuser. And everything that comes along with that. If they took the strength to speak up, why work against that strength and silence them?

I don't know why you can't seem to get out of the black and white thinking of if we acknowledge the extreme effects of abuse we are saying victims can give up on life. We can validate how difficult life is after abuse AND say there are ways to work on overcoming the obstacles. Some of which is talking about the abuse btw. Not silencing it.

Last edited by taketwo on Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:18 pm

Fox wrote:

I haven't heard the names of any victims.

I agree that the details do not need to be broadcast, and we certainly don't need to hear the testimony ourselves. It is enough for me that Rabbanim have addressed this.

Yes, abuse ruins lives. I'm not sure why you keep saying it doesn't. It does. And it's quite Jewish enough to say so.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:20 pm

b.chadash wrote:

The only appropriate response is reminding the klal that we put our trust in Hashem, not in authors of popular books.

There's no moral lesson here that people need explained. Were people somehow unaware that s-xual relations outside of marriage are wrong or that manipulating someone into an inappropriate relationship is a terrible aveira?

It is a sad and tragic story for everyone involved. Teasing out the details is both unnecessary and hurtful to everyone.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:22 pm

Fox wrote:

Details seem unfortunately to be necessary when people say - oh, no, it's all made up, it didn't happen. I wish there was another way....

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:33 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Details seem unfortunately to be necessary when people say - oh, no, it's all made up, it didn't happen. I wish there was another way....

Give me a break. Teasing out details is just to satisfy one's own curiosity.

These kinds of rationalizations are a form of a self-righteous cover. Our inner sense knows that these little details don't matter to most of us standing on the sidelines. But, the story is so salacious, are curiosity is piqued. We really have got to get down to the juicy details, so our subconscious obliges and comes up with these rationalizations - that knowing these details is going to give the victim some comfort, it's going to raise awareness and provide that supposed elusive forward fix*. And of course it's not going to provide further shame to the victim. The victim(s) wants her name on everyone's tongue. She wants her story picked up apart, analyzed from top to bottom and right to left. She continuously wants to hear how she is ruined for life and how she can never hold her head high in our communities again. - Of course, all in the name of awareness.

Yeah, sure.

*(any hint where these forward fix discussions are on any of these threads?).

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:44 pm

taketwo wrote:

I have never seen a situation in which friends and neighbors were unable to deduce that someone was likely a victim of an exposed predator. Never. Friends and neighbors usually realize that the victim spent time with the predator and admired the predator. People aren't stupid. They may even assume incorrectly that someone who spent time with the predator was a victim.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter, and it's not our role to potentially out victims who prefer privacy. Gossip and speculation do not help anyone heal.

taketwo wrote:

We are talking about the fact that there are victims and there was was an abuser. And everything that comes along with that. If they took the strength to speak up, why work against that strength and silence them?

Again my life was ruined, I did not throw in the towel. The same with many others. I don't know why you can't seem to get out of the black and white thinking of if we acknowledge the extreme effects of abuse we are saying victims can give up on life. We can validate how difficult life is after abuse AND say there are ways to work on overcoming the obstacles. Some of which is talking about the abuse btw. Not silencing it.

I understand that your personal experiences were horribly painful, and I am thankful that you had support to heal as much as possible.

That said, I don't believe gossiping about tragic situations helps anyone. It is not contradictory to take abuse seriously AND believe that gossip does more harm than good. Frankly, I'm sick of the mentality that people who invade the privacy of others in order to chew over the details and virtue signal about how awful they find it . . . are somehow seen as taking abuse more seriously.

If victims wish to share their stories for whatever reason, no one is stopping them. But gossiping about a situation is doesn't empower victims and it certainly doesn't validate them. It's just ghoulish.

If people were serious about dealing with abuse in the frum community, Rabbi Fuerst, sh'lita would have no time to speak about seminaries; he would be on the phone all day helping communities set up special batei din that consult with psychologists and law enforcement. That would be a show of taking abuse seriously, and it's not happening. Talking about how awful abuse is does nothing at this point.