Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

ora_43

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 4:01 am

Iymnok wrote:

It's not a well run army. The use of reserves is lazy. There are large numbers of reservists who have not been called up and worn out reservists who are called back.

I literally don't know anyone in reserves who wasn't called up for multiple months (and most of the men I know are in reserves). Maybe some people who aren't in combat roles aren't being called up? IDK. But I don't think this large, untapped pool of reservists actually exists.

essie14

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 4:06 am

ora_43 wrote:

Agree. Everyone I know in reserves was called up. Everyone.

Where are people getting these ideas from?

ora_43

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 4:16 am

essie14 wrote:

Agree. Everyone I know in reserves was called up. Everyone.

Where are people getting these ideas from?

I see there was a news item a few days ago about "40,000 reservists" who weren't called up.

But AFAIK those aren't people who are sitting around ready and waiting to be called up. It's people who aged out of the system or were released early as part of the decision to make the army smaller and more efficient, back before all this started. Most are over age 35. So it wouldn't just be calling them back up, it would be going through a whole legal/bureaucratic process of changing age limits for certain positions and adding them back into the reserves system, and then the practical process of assigning them to units, catching them up with training.

amother

Lightcoral

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 7:02 am

I have debated a long time if I should write here. However on the issue of reservists I want to give my experience. As far as I have been given to understand no reservists have been called up from Oct. 7th till today. My son was called on Oct.7 and served till mid Jan. and was told he was amongst one of the longest serving reservists. During that time he was given off every other Shabbos and in December one week to go back to his job that really needed him to take care of some things only he is qualified to do. He uses that skill also in the army and is therefore a reservist with a very much needed skill. In mid March he received papers that he is being called up for the month of July and they REQUESTED if he would come for 3 months prior to that as there is a shortage of his skill set. He agreed and so he went back April 1st until end Aug. This was a bit long but it is really hard for me to believe that there are reservists on tzav 8 from Oct.7 till today.

DrMom

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 7:12 am

Over 300,000 reservists were called up on Oct 7. Many served for months.

I don't know what these posters are implying about the contributions of reservists to the war, but if they are implying that the IDF should lean even more heavily on reservists instead of drafting able-bodied charedi boys, I think that's pretty indefensible.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 7:45 am

amother Lightcoral wrote:

Huh? 300,000 miluimnikim were called up since oct 7. Where are you getting that there were none? 🤔
And many men have been fir MONTHS at a time.

amother

Jasmine

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 7:48 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Huh? 300,000 miluimnikim were called up since oct 7. Where are you getting that there were none? 🤔
And many men have been fir MONTHS at a time.

I think she meant no one has served continuously since Oct 7th, everyone who was called up was sent back at some point, even if they may have been called up again.

There are nicer ways to ask for clarification.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 7:50 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Huh? 300,000 miluimnikim were called up since oct 7. Where are you getting that there were none? 🤔
And many men have been fir MONTHS at a time.

I think she means serving straight from Oct 7 until now, without any breaks.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 7:55 am

ora_43 wrote:

I know someone who didn't get called up for months, but he's in his thirties, and he wasn't an Israeli citizen when he did his sadir service, so those might have been complicating bureaucratic factors.

amother

Lightcoral

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 8:46 am

Yes I did mean continuously and obviously I couldn't mean no reservists because I said my son was called up as a reservist.
If there are reservists who are serving 8 months straight it is either by choice or an extremely extremely
skilled or high position.

someone

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 8:56 am

amother Wandflower wrote:

There definitely are some who have been serving well over 8 months straight.
Not all or most, but there are.

And there are also people who have been called up, let go, and then called up again three times. Every time they start getting back into regular life and then have to leave again.

ftm1234

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 11:06 am

This thread is a huge chilul Hashem.

To all the women who say that their husbands and sons’ Torah is helping keep the country safe: There are parents in Israel who lost multiple soldier sons in this war; there are women left alone to raise a family of kids after their husbands died; there are parents who lost an only child and will now not have the opportunity to see their families grow. I dare even one of you to go to these grieving families and tell them that your Torah helps protect the land just as much.

Your claims are outrageous and disgusting.

ftm1234

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 11:15 am

To add on to what I said before,

Most secular Israelis don’t believe that your Torah learning protects the country. To them this is all baloney.

And based on the attitude I’m seeing on here I’m starting to question what worth your Torah learning actually has.

iyar

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 11:19 am

ftm1234 wrote:

I can’t like your post because it feels weird to put a like on something so sad.
I’m not sure I agree with the term “chillul Hashem” but I agree with everything else you wrote.
I think that’s the problem. One side here is unable to see the other side. They keep making their own arguments but they don’t notice what’s happening on the other side. Instead of politicians using this issue to their best political advantage as they’re doing for years, we need mothers from both sides to meet and look each other in the eye. Mothers and wives need to share their stories, their heartbreak and their tears. It might be helpful too for young men, taking a break from their gemaras to sit on the pavement and block traffic, to dust themselves off and spend the afternoon saying Tehillim on Har Herzl instead.

essie14

Sun, Jun 30 2024, 1:32 am

https://davidmweinberg.com/202.....nked/

Quote:

The haredi world is overwhelmingly cut-off from the war reality that “mainstream” Israel is living, purposefully and devastatingly so.

Quote:

There are four pseudo-foundational concepts that haredi ideologues cite in defense of their refusal to participate in “carrying the burden” of military service.

One is that rabanan lo tzricha netiruta (Torah scholars do not need protection) because they are protected, I guess, by the Heavens. This is a distortion of the meaning of a phrase in the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Bava Batra 7b – which doesn’t at all refer to wars of defense. It refers to everyday policing tasks, at most.

amother

Bergamot

Sun, Jun 30 2024, 3:06 am

ftm1234 wrote:

I don't agree with the chareidi stance on this at all, but this is so out of line and just not true. Anyone who has been following this war knows how many soldiers asked for tzitzit, started learning, asked people to pray and learn for them. When they're going to war, yes, even the secular believe in ruchniyus hishtadlus.

And to say that the learning of tens of thousands is worthless because some imamothers are making heartless comments?? Really?

As other posters said, we'd do well to follow the model in the Torah, EVEN IF we don't have nevi'im today. Only the scholarly and the true ma'aminim go to battle. And each one is paired up with another scholar who is davening for him back home.

What a sad, sad state we are in.

ora_43

Sun, Jun 30 2024, 3:09 am

amother Black wrote:

Wait, so instead of going through all that hassle the PTB just say, "Eh, too much trouble, let's just recall all the reservists we released?" That would be really cruel, lazy and sad.

Israel isn't a military dictatorship. The army doesn't get to just up and forcibly recruit 38-year-olds who were told their service has ended. The government has to approve it.

I do love that the same people who are up in arms at the thought of 20-year-old hareidi men serving for even 1-2 years think it's "cruel, lazy and sad" that 38-year-old non-hareidi men who did 3 full years of mandatory service aren't being forced to do reserves for an 18th year.