Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

iyar

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 1:24 pm

Fox wrote:

I hadn't planned to comment on this thread because I don't live in Israel, and my conversational Hebrew is not adequate to truly keep up with news that hasn't been filtered through English-language parties.

However, Garfield echoes something I've thought for a long time. Dovid HaMelech had a specific formula for managing Israel's military: one-third of the army in combat roles; one-third in support roles; and one-third learning. Are today's leaders -- both secular and religious -- so much smarter than Dovid HaMelech?

Of course, as Ora_43 points out, there's plenty of wrong to go around, with political maneuvering and intransigence on all sides.

Still, I pray for an IDF from which it's more likely that a soldier emerges more religious rather than less, and I pray for yeshivas filled with "soldiers" whose role is seen by all to be equally vital to that of someone on the front lines.

We’re not living in the times of Dovid Hamelech. We don’t have a melech, we don’t have a Kohen Gadol, we have no aron.
We have a very flawed government, but we have permission to live in Israel and millions of Jews live there.
Did you read what amother Dill wrote? Soldiers are risking their lives on the battlefield and stretching out their hand to ask for help. It’s literally pikuach nefesh. We see it every day in the headlines. We have to take that seriously when we formulate a response.

pearlprincess

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:04 pm

amother Forestgreen wrote:

The way I see it is that the chareidi world hasnt demonstrated that they really believe that their learning is protecting the land. Come on, the country is at war. There should be 24/7 mishmar of people learning. Just like soldiers on guard. no bein hazmanim or Friday afternoons off.

Instead it's business as usual. maybe there was 1 day less of bein hazmanim while the soldiers have been in Gaza & North nonstop since 10/7! And all the people only learning a few hours a day. Dont we think that the chilonim and hesder people see that?

DH is a huge masmid. he learns constantly. But I see what's going on with lots of other kolel people. I'm sure the gedolim learn constantly. They are for sure supporting & protectitng. But is everyone else? Like an army?

You do know that there is Yeshiva learning during bein hazmanim regardless of whether there is a war or not. Also , chayalim do get time off to see their families..

pearlprincess

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:16 pm

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Bnei Brak 10, don't you realize how you sound?

I am chareidi too, in chassidish circles and I am cringing when reading your posts.

Do you remember when no chareidi would go up on Har habayis?

What happened lately that more Rabbonim allow it and many many chareidim go?

We need to get on with the times, within the framework of halacha. Stop fighting the progression of the state and the dynamics of the demographics of Israelis. We'll soon be the majority.

What is your solution?

The solution is for the army to run itself like a Jewish army .. open up Sefer Yehoshua and see what Hashem tells Yehoshua to follow His directives exactly without any changes.. You can't honestly think that an army that is not being run completely b'derech of Hashem is the right way to defend the Land of Hashem!!! Maybe this is the reason why soldiers are dying and the war is not ending.

Aurora

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:20 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

I'm waiting for a malach to come down and tell the commanders to pick up the Aron Hakodesh and some shofars.

But since, for some reason, we seem to be missing an Aron -- I'm not sure this this the best argument.

By this logic, perhaps those funding yeshivos should send prayers instead of dollars since prayers are the best on which to rely?

Last edited by Aurora on Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

DrMom

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:20 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

How specifically should the army be run?

chestnut

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:23 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

You do know that there is Yeshiva learning during bein hazmanim regardless of whether there is a war or not. Also , chayalim do get time off to see their families..

And October 7 still happened despite so much learning.
You're seriously comparing soldiers getting a few days off after months in Gaza to yeshiva students leading their normal lives??

someone

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:49 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

You do know that there is Yeshiva learning during bein hazmanim regardless of whether there is a war or not. Also , chayalim do get time off to see their families..

Do you know what a lot of soldiers did in their short time off between weeks of constant fighting? Went to funerals, went to shiva calls, went to visit families of their friends who had been killed and whose funerals and shiva they missed because they couldn't leave, went to visit friends who had been injured. Tried to spend some time with their families who are falling apart. Tried to revive their businesses.
Enough already with the ridiculous comparisons. I think a lot of people here simply don't understand the reality on the ground, because if you did you would think more before writing such things.

someone

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:53 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

Is it the best way? The way things are ultimately meant to be? No. Is it what Hashem has given us now? Yes. We may not yet have an army that is run completely bderech of Hashem, but we have an army of gibborim who go out to battle yelling shema yisrael, who asked for tzitzit in their thousands, who are connected on the deepest level possible to Hashem's land and his people, to the extent that they are willing to give up their lives for them.
And if people here want the army to be run bderech Hashem - so yalla, come along and be a part of it. The only way to make real change is from the inside.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 3:24 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

You do know that there is Yeshiva learning during bein hazmanim regardless of whether there is a war or not. Also , chayalim do get time off to see their families..

How are you comparing chayalim in active duty to men sitting in a SAFE beit midrash?

Then things I read here sometimes. Makes me want to pull my hair out.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 3:25 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

Do you live in Israel? I dont understand where your mind is when you are writing things here. Disgusting thing to write. Think before you write things.

amother

Jasmine

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 3:35 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

I actually was wondering if this was written tongue in cheek. I assume you realize that we can't fight modern wars with ancient tactics. As someone else mentioned, we are missing the navi telling us exactly when and where to go. And I don't think any modern army is going to be freaked out by the sound of shofar blowing.

essie14

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:53 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

You do know that there is Yeshiva learning during bein hazmanim regardless of whether there is a war or not. Also , chayalim do get time off to see their families..

Chayalim get so little time off during war, it's laughable to compare to how cushy this who are not serving are living right now.
My cousin has been in miluim since Oct 7. He has barely been home with his wife and children. His wife is at the verge of a breakdown. His kids are terrified.
How many chareidim do you know living like this?

essie14

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:54 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

This is the most disgusting thing I've read here.

iyar

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:20 pm

pearlprincess wrote:

Are you for real?
Why start at Sefer Yehoshua? Go back to Chumash Bamidbar and feed your kids mahn for dinner.

We’re in galus now. Galus is a time of darkness, of hester panim. No one knows why tragedies happen. Every soldier we lose is a painful loss for all of Klal Yisrael. None of us can answer questions beginning with why, not in our private lives and not on a communal level. The best we can do is to look inside ourselves and see if there’s something we need to improve.

amother

Bottlebrush

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:48 pm

This discussion is completely out of hand.
As a charedi, I am so torn. I hear both sides, I don't have a solution. The pain of families whose men are serving is unfathomable.
But the comments on here in both directions are absolutely uncalled for.
I would recommend anyone who can't avoid sinas chinam to keep their comments to themselves.

amother

Calendula

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:27 am

essie14 wrote:

This just makes me want to cry. It's impossible for people not living this reality to fully comprehend and understand.
Many people in the charadi world do feel this pain, and wish things would change. As individuals they follow their gedolim without fully understanding their reasonings and in their wish to reconcile their dissonance they sometimes come out with ridiculous arguments to justify their not taking part.

Iymnok

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 3:06 am

It's not a well run army. The use of reserves is lazy. There are large numbers of reservists who have not been called up and worn out reservists who are called back.
Chareidi reservists are put in mixed units then punished for refusing to serve in such conditions.
A little organization and effort would solve this debate.
The management of reservists should be done with foresight and long term planning.
There is a limit to the moral when no breathing room is given.

The thousands of reservists sitting at home should be tapped before the handful of chareidim. (Who are untrained and the proper framework is not in place for.)

amother

Jasmine

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 3:58 am

Iymnok wrote:

Not a well-run army doesn't contradict the need for more manpower, and doesn't absolve the charedim from doing their part.

I'm not sure which "handful of charedim" you're referring to, but if they aren't suited to a specific role obviously it isn't for them. But we are looking in the long run here. Train now, they will be suitable down the road. I know lots of young (not charedi) men who drafted since the war started, they'll be going into Gaza soon, after undergoing full training. If Mashiach doesn't come before they finish their service, those men will become our (fully qualified) reserve soldiers.